Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

I bought a nice cosmetic condition Seiko Lord Marvel 5606 a few months ago (movement bright and shiny too), with no date wheel issues.

It's been a long debugging process ever since. it was running when I bought it at a local vintage market, but it would randomly stop. After putting it on the timegrapher, it was running pretty low amplitude (160-ish), so I figured I'd try servicing it. I've been stuck for a while now after trying a number of things, and I'm looking for some input.

(everything has been lubricated with appropriate Moebius 9010, 9103, and 8217 for barrel walls, per Seiko tech manual)

Steps I've already taken so far:

- Replaced barrel and mainspring with NOS parts (no major improvements)

- Replaced pallet fork with NOS parts (didn't want to run, probably needs pallet stone adjustments, which feels above my skill level)

- Replaced pallet fork, escapement wheel and escapement bridge with used parts (back to running poorly after this swap)

- Replaced balance & hairspring assembly with NOS parts (definitely improved amplitude, in dial up, at least) 

At this point, my problem is simple to describe:

- In dial up position, it's running 0-.5 beat error, 200-210 amplitude, and I can zero it in timing and it's super stable.

- In every other position, amplitude is 160-170, beat error jumps around a but (still well under 1), and timing is all over the place, changes every few seconds.

I've closely inspected the balance jewels with a 25x loupe, cleaned/assembled (naptha & alchohol + toothbrush, and Rodico) the running gear numerous times (with less oil each time), and inspected gear teeth/pivots and endplay (which is fairly tight everywhere) as closely as possible. The original pallet fork looked a little weird, which is why I replaced it already.

My only thought from this point is that I should find another mainplate, and give that a shot. Perhaps there's a bad jewel I'm not seeing.

Thoughts?

P.S. I know a pro could fix it...I'm trying my best to learn as a hobby.

18954824_10213603326545920_826257399009973971_o.jpg

Posted (edited)

How does the holes for the mainspring barrel look? Both in the mainplate  and the trainwheel bridge? That could be a problem with Seiko movement. I don't think you need to adjust the stones on a NOS pallet fork. 

Check if the hairspring touches something. It self or the bridge. 

Edited by rogart63
Posted

Probably to much end shake with the balance. If I get a great difference in different positions then this is the first area I look at. Check for play with the mainspring barrel which can be wear with the  manipulate. In my experience Seiko,s do not give a great amplitude but seem to run just fine with a 220/250 amplitude.  

Posted

Sorry I forgot the mention...the mainspring arbor port seems within reason (I watched a lot of Spencer Klein videos to learn what OK looks like :P ). That could be it, but I didn't see any brassing etc. It also seemed a bit tighter after swapping in a new barrel.

 

Balance endshake makes sense to me. Does that imply I should replace the endstones diashock frames? I guess I'm just not sure right off the bat how I would tighten up excessive endshake.

Posted

Try to put the all movement in the demagnetizer. I've seen surprisely big improvements with the Seiko movements by just doing this. It does not match necessarily with diferent behaviour on different positions, but it will not harm.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Posted
7 hours ago, Cmmb8519 said:

Try to put the all movement in the demagnetizer. I've seen surprisely big improvements with the Seiko movements by just doing this. It does not match necessarily with diferent behaviour on different positions, but it will not harm.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

It seems like almost every watch I get in the mail has been at least partially magnetized, it's one of the first things I check for. This one has been demag'd early on, even before replacing the hairspring.

Posted

Reducing end shake is skill that takes practice and the use of the correct tool.  If the balance staff is OK & the end stones in good condition then you will need a Seitz jeweling tool or a Horia Jeweling Tool. The link below  shows how the guy reduces end shake in train wheels but the method applies to the balance as well. I have adjusted end shake in that past by moving the lower jewel setting in a tiny amount. I presume this is the correct method and it works. 

 

http://raulhorology.com/2012/07/eta-6498-the-gear-train-adjusting-end-shake-truing-wheels-lubrication/

Posted

Out of interest, if it is indeed excessive balance endshake which causes poor timing across positions, what is it about the change of position of the balance which typically affects it's rate? Is it maybe the interaction of the impulse Jewel and the pallets?

Posted
37 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Out of interest, if it is indeed excessive balance endshake which causes poor timing across positions, what is it about the change of position of the balance which typically affects it's rate? Is it maybe the interaction of the impulse Jewel and the pallets?

I think so but not sure all I know reducing end shake reduces positional error. What I don't understand is, if the jewels are OK & the balance is OK why there is to much end shake. Perhaps the balance bridge has become distorted or a wrong length balance staff has been fitted or maybe the balance & jewels over time just wear. I do know that the Rolex 3135 allows for  this by an adjustments fitted to the plate. 

  • Like 1
Posted

I've had a worn balance staff before, so I guess end-shake can increase there. I've just been re-jewelling an IWC balance cock, so am obviously interested in the potential effects on positional variation. In my case, I had to increase the endshake by moving the jewel 1/100th of a mm at at time until it was completely free, so the endshake certainly won't be excessive.

Posted

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the Seiko diashock system, the endstones and diashock frames determine the endshake. As such, if they're seated properly, and the balance bridge isn't distorted, it should be correct?

P.S. I noticed in the technical manual, there are distinct part numbers for the upper/lower diashock frames. I can't visually see any difference...perhaps I have the frames on the wrong side? Does anyone know how to tell them apart? (I didn't keep them separate during cleaning).

  • Like 1
Posted

Not sure if you are correct. However I have encountered this issue with many watches (normally vintage) and with Seiko's. In theory there should not be any end shake if the endstones /jewels are OK and the balance is OK but it happens.
I recently restored a vintage Smiths watch for a friend and positional error was an issue but after moving the lower jewel setting a tiny amount the fault was eradicated. Someone with  more experience may have the answer.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • This was what I was afraid of. The movement is not one of the generic black square modules. Remove the movement from the clock and try prying it open very carefully, without breaking the plastic tabs. The plastic might be brittle from age. Clean the wheels and check the battery contacts for corrosion. Check the PCB for bad solder joints. Take plenty of photos along the way.
    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
×
×
  • Create New...