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AlexanderB

Schatz Glasenuhr Watch Clock Repait

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Hi, 

I always wanted to have a ship bell clock. On ebay I found a Schatz clock that is not working. The owner stated that it might be over-wound. The mainspring of the movement was indeed fully wound but the movement does not work.

First of all a few pictures of the clock.

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I found the following:

  • Whenever the mainspring gets just a little tension the wheel B isn't moving anymore. There is not a bit play.
  • After releasing the power from the mainspring, I can get the balance start moving when applying some force to wheel B or C.
  • When I apply power to the barrel A I cannot get the balance start working.

This tells me that the escapement is working fine.

@clockboy I saw that post but the escape wheel had a problem in that one.

I just ordered some clock oil (Moebius 8030) and a key to wind it. I will start working on that one after I got the material.

IMG_1660 - Kopie.jpg

I am lacking experience on clocks. Was just working on watches. I hope that I don't need to fully disassemble the clock. Any idea how this weird behavior is possible?

Cheers Alexander

Edited by AlexanderB

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I just had a look at the movement. Since it is quite easy to remove the barrels, I removed the barrel for the movement.

When I apply power to the wheel that is driven by the barrel wheel, the balance starts moving.

I opened the barrel and found a lot of oil on the mainspring. I thought that there should be grease instead of oil. Could that be the reason?

I decided to take out the mainspring, clean it and lubricate it. 

Two questions:

  1. How difficult will it be to take out the mainspring? I did that on tiny watches with my fingers but not on such a huge one. I don't have a tool and since this would be very expensive I don't buy one.
  2. I have Moebius 8300 and 8212 grease at hand. Which one would you use?

Thank you.

Cheers Alexander

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12 hours ago, AlexanderB said:

Here are two pictures of the open barrel

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Be careful removing the spring they can really hurt and cause damage to you and anything else in its path.  Its best to use a designated clock spring winder. If you are going to remove by hand do it inside a clear plastic bag and wear gloves. I used to have a wooden contraption I made for this task but now use a "Oli Baker" winder see below.

Clock servicing is much the same as watches. Strip, clean, reassemble.However normally with clocks the pivots are polished.

Screen Shot 2016-12-19 at 06.51.29.png

 

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Be careful removing the spring they can really hurt and cause damage to you and anything else in its path.  Its best to use a designated clock spring winder. If you are going to remove by hand do it inside a clear plastic bag and wear gloves. 


I've never seen a clock spring taken out by hand, normally a winder is used. Many years ago they might of. I bet that spring could be very powerful !

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What you have described is a typical situation of wear in the holes to the movement, you need to check the wheels to see which ones need to be re-bushed, it could be bent teeth or pivots but I don’t think so because that is mainly caused by a broken spring. These modern movements are poorly made with second rate metal, soft steel and what you think is brass is a made up soft composition installed large powerful springs that will wear the movement in no time. What is also bad is it has a balance wheel which you find in 30-hour alarm clocks, at least you would expect to see a platform escapement.  All clocks with springs encased in barrels should be removed in the proper way and that is by a good mainspring winder, removing by hand can and will cause damage to the springs, you end up distorting the spring into a spiral looking spring and it’s out of shape, this can cause the clock to keep bad time because when winding the springs up the coils rise up and rub inside of the barrel caps.

From what I can see from your photo, the parts you have numbered are all on the strike side, so the strike having the wear is fouling up the going side, not un-common the strike can jam up causing loss of or no power getting through. Your first step is to let the power down from both springs, you can find how to do this on the net, when let down, I would remove both barrels, make sure you know which barrel goes back in on the side you removed them from, with a pair of tweezers check each wheel for movement in the holes and for end shake, bad teeth and pinons, the bad ones are the ones that need to be fixed wear in the hole will need to be re-bushed. The wheel I would be most interested in is the one you have marked C that is the star wheel and with the star it lifts the hammers and will take most of the wear, but do check them all, you will have to take the whole thing apart to complete a successful repair. If you like to tell me how you are progressing get back and I  can help you with this project.  

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Thank you @oldhippy for your answer. It seems I underestimated this project. First, I don't have a spring winder. Buying one would go way beyond my budget. But I can clearly see your point in not doing that by hand.

As you suggested, I already powered down both springs that was an easy one. I was pretty obvious how to do that. As you can see, I already took out one barrel. I looked at the barrel wheel with the loupe and saw significant wear on the teeth. I would say 0.3mm ore more are worn out. These parts definitely need replacement. I'll post a picture tonight.

That being said, it is clear that the clock was used for a long time. This means that a lot of effort has to be put into this to get it done properly.

Looking at the movement itself I was pretty disappointed by the look and know exactly what you mean by

Quote

These modern movements are poorly made with second rate metal, soft steel and what you think is brass is a made up soft composition installed large powerful springs that will wear the movement in no time.

Yes, the wheels have significant play. 

I will sell the clock. Repairing this clock will take a lot of time, and I just don't have the experience. Plus, I don't consider this worthwhile doing.

I'd rather go back to watched. This is more rewarding to me. 

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it  looks like you have the right idea on that mvt.,  THE MAIN SPRING.  and you realized "special tools required"  good show !  at this time,  my only advice is "safety glasses."     cheers,  vinn

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my only advice is "safety glasses."    Never wore them couldn't get on with them. It's good practice to wear a good pair of gloves because some of the replacement springs are very rough and have sharp edges, there not finished like the old springs. 

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Again, thank you all for your contributions. As promised, I took a few pictures of the teeth of the barrel wheel and two pivot holes from wheels B and C.

There is a major play. I'd say up to 0.3mm or even more. When I move the barrel wheel, I can the axles see clearly move back and forth. 

I do have a lathe and some brass. Would it work to turn a bushing of double diameter of the pivot, drill the pivot hole to the bushing diameter and press it in?

@oldhippy Do you think the gear is stuck due to the play in the pivots? Do you think that the highly worn barrel wheel prevents the gear from turning?

Thanks for your support.

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The tops of the teeth from that barrel have worn right off due to the wear in the holes. This would not normally be as bad as this if it had been hard brass. Because the barrel teeth have lost there tops it is possible that by re-bushing the wheel next to the barrel it might not engage, the depth will certainly be wrong, it is also possible the pivots have worn. Have you compared both barrels to see how much of the teeth have worn off, it might need a new barrel. Wear like this will cause the whole of the strike side to bind together and prevent power getting through. To sort this out because of the worn teeth you will certainly need a clock depthing tool, then you will have to make the runners to hold a barrel, they only normaly come with runners for wheels that hold pivots.     

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Interesting thread. As said I have no knowledge of clocks but to clarify. If we take an imaginary movement and think of set of wheels all in perfect alignment in a circle and an arrow going to each wheel in a perfect straight line.
Then when wear occurs, think of a wheel tilting and how this would effect the direction of power of the arrow to the other wheels.
First effect (tilting arrow causing loss power) movement sluggish with low amplitude.
Second effect (Wear exceeds more then one third the diameter of the pivot) friction to great for the movement to function.
Also if it's a cheap movement it may be possible to close the pivot holes with a staking set, messy and not a neat repair. With the wear to the barrel teeth as well and probable wear to the pivot I think success is unlikely.



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1 hour ago, digginstony said:

Also if it's a cheap movement it may be possible to close the pivot holes with a staking set, messy and not a neat repair. With the wear to the barrel teeth as well and probable wear to the pivot I think success is unlikely.
 

Closing pivot holes in many old clocks was common practice, people lived in small villages and hamlets didn't have clock repairers but more likely they had a village black smith, that is the way they would close up a hole. I've seen some really nasty work undertaken that has damaged some lovely clocks. Some what can only be described as cowboys still do it.    

 

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I bushed & repaired quite a few clocks but never seen a worn barrel like that. As oldhippy states it must be made of real poor quality metal. I have seen many posts showing how to change broken teeth on a barrel but not the complete set of barrel teeth. Cousins do complete barrels see below:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/barrels-complete

I found this site that sells complete barrels but they are across the pond.

http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/cat_name/assorted_clock_barrels.aspx

Or give this company a call they have helped me in the past.

http://www.m-p.co.uk/index.htm

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Thank you all for your contributions. After @oldhippy mentioned, that I should compare it to the other barrel I really saw the mess. I will take pictures tonite. The bell barrel is fully intact as far as I can judge it. My idea is to switch the barrels to se at least if the clock is running again.

There is a company that still does the Schatz clocks in Germany, which I will contact and ask for spares. If I could get one barrel and the two plates I guess the job could be done. 

Question

Again, what do you think of the idea of turning new brass bearings for the two pivots that are severely damaged? Then drill the existing pivot open (4mm maybe), and press in the new bearing. I have a small lathe (Proxxon PD 230) so I would be able to do that.

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I asked www.schatz1881.de and got a rather rude response from the owner that they cannot help. Let's see if cousinsuk has something. 

@oldhippy can you please explain what you mean by "Bergeon or K W M will do the job and it will save you the time"?

Thanks

Cheers Alexander

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