Waltham 1892 Balance Staff Replacement

[94marconi]

As promised, here is my attempt at replacing a broken Balance staff. I broke the staff over 3 years ago and am now starting the process. I have been slowly amassing the proper tools to do the job and have been studying and hanging out on forums such as this one. While i am very mechanically inclined i have no experience whatsoever and I realize that reading and watching videos is no substitute for real world experience. Having said all that, how hard could it be...

I bought the replacement staff from ebay three years ago. Research came up with a 1703A staff which I am told is for the later runs of the 1892 movement. Long waist versus short waist. 

The main tools I will be using will be my K&D 600 staking set which i had a lot of fun restoring and am still working on completing. I believe this was a set that was purchased to complete another set as the jeweling attachment is missing the lever. But most of the stakes are there as well as the stumps and the die plate is in excellent shape.

The roller remover is the most recent purchase and was bought from Uncle Larry's. Unfortunately the No1 stake was broken. Was not able to see the damage when I purchased it. Hopefully this was an honest oversight and not hidden on purpose. Luckily, my staking set had a set of three stakes and two anvils that turned out to be for a roller remover set. the one I purchased is a C,E, Marshall set.

The broken staff and the start of my journey into the world of Horology 

The first thing that needs to be done is remove the hairspring from the balance. After marking the stud position on the balance rim, the balance was placed in the die plate of the staking tool (I don't have a bench block yet) and a screwdriver was inserted into the split collar and gently twisted the collar back and forth and the hairspring slid right off. A set of hand levers would have been a better choice, but they are still on my too purchase list. I do wonder if using the twist off method opens up the split collar to any degree? The first of many questions to come. 

The next step is to remove the roller table. For this, the balance was placed in the anvil which was placed in the die plate and a light tap on the No. 2 stake and the staff still attached to the balance dropped straight down leaving the two part roller assembly. When I see the tips of these stakes broken, and how little force is required to do the job, how in the heck does one manage to break them??

So far so good  Now on to the staff removal. I was fortunate to find a K&D balance staff remover tool among the parts when doing inventory of the staking set. Once i reviewed the videos on it's use it was time to try it out myself. I found the larger of the two stakes fit the staff the best. I think the thinner of the two is for wristwatch size staffs.

 

Once I had figured out how to set up the remover in the staking tool, all it took was two light but firm taps with the hammer on the stake and the staff was lying at the bottom of the staking tool.  There is no apparent damage to the balance at all.

The two staffs side by side. I will measure to be sure as best I can, but the replacement looks to be correct. 

So far the removal has been a success, and i hope the installation of the new staff goes as well. I wonder if this is a friction fit staff due to the ease of removal of the old one? Any thoughts from the pocket watch crowd?

The installation of the staff will have to wait until she who must be obeyed renovation projects are brought up to speed. Ordered my new Bergeon screwdrivers and the first of the mobious oil to keep me happy in the meantime. The cheap indian screwdrivers were a joke to say the least and was comical watching the tips fall out every time you went to use them and stripping the set screws in frustration. Madame is off to New York city in a week, so perhaps i will get time to attempt the staff install then...

Ron...

 

 

 

[clockboy]

Excellent post Marconi. I have replaced only a few balance staffs myself. The removal of the old balance staff is the difficult part of this job. Avoiding stretching the existing hole is important.  I use a Bergion "Platax" tool (no longer available) I have used this company when purchasing the staffs. http://www.balancestaffs.com/waltham.php.

I have noticed how the prices have been rising significantly this year.

[Geo]

I echo Clockboy's comments, and thank you for posting an excellently illustrated presentation.  These are the sort of quality posts this forum requires, as the task is clearly explained and photographed.  Very well done!

[parmenion31]

Nice work marconi , the pictures are excellent and like a profesional , also i liked your tools there , keep on

[94marconi]

Thanks for the feedback. Gives me a chance to practice my macro photography skills, as well as the watch stuff.

My questions, unfortunately remain unanswered.

1) Does using a screwdriver in the split of the hairspring collar open the collar to any degree? If so is it a simple matter of closing it up with a gentle squeeze?

2) Does the new balance staff need to be riveted on or is the 1892 balance a friction fit as some of the Walthams are.

3) How does one break the ends of the stakes? It's not as if one is driving tent pegs.

 

Ron

[Brian3]

Hi Ron,

Don't use a screwdriver to remove the collet and hairspring off the balance, way too big and clumsy, your technique is fine but use an oiler instead, much gentler on the collet and usually you can get the assembly off in one easy gentle twist and pull maneuver, with no damage to collet itself.

I'm not familiar with Waltham pocket watch staffs but reading your notes I'd say it is a friction fit as when you removed your old one there didn't appear to be evidence of you breaking off the old rivet, this would show itself as a small metal ring being left over.

Hope this helps a little.

[94marconi]

Thanks for the information Brian3.  I was able to get it off in two gentle twists, but your oiler tip makes sense. Just waiting to get the rest of the needed oils and some oilers and pots. There was no sign of a rivet ring nor any marks on the balance at all. that is why I wondered if it was a friction fit. I will head over to Watchuseek and see what I can dig up there for information.

Ron

 

[matabog]

in my experiente, you could damage a tool just by dropping it on the floor/hard surface

[matabog]

about your first question, you don't want to bend the hs at the collet! so use whatever you want, just control your force into it.

i believe just bending the collet back will do, but be in control, don't sandwich  it

[94marconi]

Thanks Matabog. Yes, I suppose dropping the tool would of course invite breakage. Some of the ends of the stakes look pretty beat up though, and required them to be redressed. 

Ron

[clockboy]

Removing a hairspring is a relatively simple job. However it must be done without damaging the hairspring & collet.
One suggested method is to insert a small screwdriver into the collet split & twist. This method I do not like for fear of slippage or opening up the collet hole. My method is I have two old screwdrivers that I honed to a fine point & slide them under the hairspring & lift up from the collet. 

[Vich]

I like oilers same as Brian and bought a few cheap sets that I never use for oiling but they come in handy for other usage.
Cheers,
Vic

[Cad101]

I use a set of sharpened and polished small hand lifters one under either side of the collet then twist in opposite directions the hairspring and collet will just pop off .