Identification please

[buzz12]

Found this movement in a sealed bag and would like to learn more about what it is exactly? It appears to have been repaired/serviced and cleaned but not sure if it is complete or if it works.  I have not spotted any makers marks so any information about the movement (age, possible origin/maker etc.) would be gratefully received.

[vinn3]

very good looking mvt..     you can check the  condition by inspecting the clearence of the piviits. one of the old clock experts will help you on other problems and age,

[clockboy]

it is a new one for me. By looking at the mainspring barrels it is some sort of Fusee driven clock & therefore vintage. The the pendulum is missing. & I can not make out where the fusee chain goes.It might be driven by weights.

Oldhippy will be the guy that might be able to give a better description.

[Geo]

Looks like an old long case movement circa 1860. The barrels are not fusee as they are not tapered.  They are scrolled to receive the gut cords that the weights hang on.  One for the clock and the other for the chimes.

[buzz12]

Thanks for the replies guys. That gives me a good starting point for research. When you say long case movement Geo, are you thinking Grandfather clock?

[Geo]

  On 7/6/2016 at 9:13 AM, buzz12 said:

When you say long case movement Geo, are you thinking Grandfather clock?

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That's the one!

[Cad101]

All I can say is knowing nothing about clocks is its very nice made of brass and missing a bell there hope that helped.

[oldhippy]

It is a 8day 5 pillar Longcase Clock, known as a Grandfather Clock. It has rack striking and an anchor escapement. The movement is almost  complete, its missing the bell and nut, two pulleys, pendulum, dial, hands, seat board, screws to hold the movement to the seat board and case. A five pillar movement puts it above  as just being ordinary. One other thing about this one is the escapement is set quite low down the train. It has been repaired in the past as you can see on the inside plate for the pallets, this was undertaken a very long time ago as you can see by the colour  the brass matches.   The makers name would have been on the dial. We can still put a date to the movement by looking at the pillars and they tell me 1660 to about 1740 and it most likely had a brass dial, I can't see all of the hour wheel pipe but what I don't see is a pin or a protruding type pin so this tells me it didn't have a calendar therefore I expect the brass dial would be 12inch square. The movement has recently been cleaned and the screws polished.      

[stroppy]

Oldhippy you are just the best!  I am in awe of your knowledge in this area.  I wish I had this level of expertise! 

[Cad101]

I he ain't at all bad is he he's a wealth of important information. Although I'm amazed  he can remember anything with a name like oldhippy all those psychedelic drugs an all 

[oldhippy]

  On 7/6/2016 at 4:44 PM, Cad101 said:

I he ain't at all bad is he he's a wealth of important information. Although I'm amazed  he can remember anything with a name like oldhippy all those psychedelic drugs an all 

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I'm not that good because I forgot to mention that the bell post and screw is missing. It would be screw into the hole just above the pallet cock to the right. The proper term for the strike is called rack and snail. I'm off to bed to give my little gray cells a good rest.

[buzz12]

That's amazing Oldhippy!

  On 7/6/2016 at 1:08 PM, oldhippy said:

its missing the bell and nut, two pulleys, pendulum, dial, hands

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They might not all be missing... somewhere among the stuff I have, I have seen most of what you mention. I will have a dig about tomorrow and see what I can find.  

 

  On 7/6/2016 at 1:08 PM, oldhippy said:

it most likely had a brass dial, I can't see all of the hour wheel pipe but what I don't see is a pin or a protruding type pin so this tells me it didn't have a calendar therefore I expect the brass dial would be 12inch square.

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I have seen a brass dial with brass spandrels about that size.  Various pendulums (one I am sure is from the single handed grandfather clock I have, but not sure which one).  I'll put some pics up and see if they may go with this movement.

Can't thank you enough OH for sharing your invaluable knowledge. I figured from the workmanship that it was old, but didn't realise it was that old. Pics to follow and we'll see if I have a full house   

[buzz12]

That's amazing Oldhippy!

  On 7/6/2016 at 1:08 PM, oldhippy said:

its missing the bell and nut, two pulleys, pendulum, dial, hands

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They might not all be missing... somewhere among the stuff I have, I have seen most of what you mention. I will have a dig about tomorrow and see what I can find.  

 

  On 7/6/2016 at 1:08 PM, oldhippy said:

it most likely had a brass dial, I can't see all of the hour wheel pipe but what I don't see is a pin or a protruding type pin so this tells me it didn't have a calendar therefore I expect the brass dial would be 12inch square.

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I have seen a brass dial with brass spandrels about that size.  Various pendulums (one I am sure is from the single handed grandfather clock I have, but not sure which one).  I'll put some pics up and see if they may go with this movement.

Can't thank you enough OH for sharing your invaluable knowledge. I figured from the workmanship that it was old, but didn't realise it was that old. Pics to follow and we'll see if I have a full house 

Found some dial bits but they are not the right size. Is the first brass dial the sort of thing that the movement would of had?

 

[vinn3]

So  there it is !  you came to the right forum.  i might suggest building a mount and a dust cover while aquiring parts and a case.  good show!   vinn

[oldhippy]

  On 7/6/2016 at 4:44 PM, Cad101 said:

I he ain't at all bad is he he's a wealth of important information. Although I'm amazed  he can remember anything with a name like oldhippy all those psychedelic drugs an all 

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I'm not that good because I forgot to mention that the bell post is missing.

 After a good sleep and the grey cells recharged I find a very big problem with this movement. It hasn't got any holes to fit a dial, there are normally four, some do have three this hasn't even got a single one. I can't see any place where a punch mark might be to start drilling. My only conclusion is this movement hasn't been finished, but why would you do all this work and not drill the holes, you would drill the holes first before putting the whole thing together, it doesn't make sense. I do see some damage teeth to the barrel on the strike side.  

None of those dials have any dial feet. The first dial is what I would hope to see. The arch dial doesn't have any winding holes, which makes me think it would be for a 30 hour movement as they are wound up by a chain. The last one isn't even finished, no screw holes for spandrels.

I've got to put my thinking cap on and see what I can come up with.

For some reason my new post has ended up here.

Edited July 7, 2016 by oldhippy

[buzz12]

Weird... like you say it doesn't make sense. Is it possible that the dial would be fixed to a back plate attached to the case rather than the movement? The brass dial is only 10in square so does not fit this movement anyway.  Like you suggested, I think I need to find a 12in dial.

[oldhippy]

I know what you mean but in all the years that I have been into horology I have never seen such a thing and never seen it in any books. I could understand an amateur trying to do such a thing but this movement is good quality plus it has five pillars not the bog standard four. It has all the signs of a quality long case movement.    

If that dial is a 10 inch one then that is very early.

[oldhippy]

Here is my conclusion of this movement. It never had a dial and was never finished and somehow got left. The clockmaker didn't make the dials for these clocks it would have been what we call today farmed out. A person would like a clock made so one would make to what the customer wanted the same with the dial and the makers name of the clock movement would be added to the dial not the dial maker, this one never got that far, but I still don't know why the holes weren't made before assembly, there's no marks to show where the holes are to go so it never even made it that far. Could it be just a movement for show if so that would be an answer for the fifth pillar, add weights and pendulum fix it up somehow on a bracket to a wall and a customer could see it going knowing what type of movement they will be buying,  we will never know.

I would like to read others comments on this movement as we all have different views. It's a most interesting topic and a valuable one to this ever increasing friendly forum.  

[vinn3]

if you are looking for a case for the "granfather" type on the  inter net;  try entering "long case clocks"  vinn

[buzz12]

That is a plausible explanation, OH.  Since I can't think of an alternative reason I will run with that for now.  Like you say, it would be good to hear if anyone has any comments or ideas. It is most unusual.

[oldhippy]

  On 7/9/2016 at 10:25 AM, buzz12 said:

That is a plausible explanation, OH.  Since I can't think of an alternative reason I will run with that for now.  Like you say, it would be good to hear if anyone has any comments or ideas. It is most unusual.

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How did you get hold of the movement and all the other parts?

[buzz12]

Like you, my late father was a clock-maker/watch repairer.  I now have, well basically the contents of his workshop.  All manner of bits, parts, tools, unfinished projects, watches and clocks that I am enjoying learning about. Sadly, although I always admired his clocks and skills, I had no interest in this fascinating topic until his passing and now or course I am kicking myself for not sharing his passion and knowledge.  As you can imagine with 25 years experience his clock skills were vast but his organization could maybe have been a little better.  I am quite sure he would have known exactly what he had, where it was and what went with what, but I am just left guessing.  Hence the dilemma I have with this movement.

Was this movement intended for use in a Grandmother clock he made that was half finished? Or, maybe it was for the relic of a long-case clock found out in the garage that had been there for years?  Or, maybe it came from that relic of a long-case?  Of course I will never know.

The position I find myself in is very frustrating but I am enjoying the learning process and thankful for all the invaluable help the forum offers.  Although I have learnt enough to resurrect a few watches I can clearly see now that things are not always what they appear, so it might take me a while longer to conquer a clock.  

 

 

[oldhippy]

How nice to have all those memories of your father along with the things he had that was to do with his work. You must have already realized that watch/clockmakers or repairers never throw anything away. The amount of stuff I had It was incredible that I managed to find places to put it all. When I decided that I'd had enough I had to sort out the good from the bad, I had a skip to get rid of the real junk while the rest went to auction.   

[clockboy]

I agree with oldhippy it is a real strange one. I just wonder if it was a clock that was made by an apprentice clockmaker/watchmaker but never finished. 

[oldhippy]

  On 7/9/2016 at 8:18 PM, clockboy said:

I agree with oldhippy it is a real strange one. I just wonder if it was a clock that was made by an apprentice clockmaker/watchmaker but never finished. 

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The reason I didn't go for an apprentice piece is there are no depthing tool marks on the plates for marking out the exact position of the train wheels, I would expect to see some kind of marks, in fact no marks at all.

It's still a good idea.