Bucherer

[chadders1966]

Hi,

Attached are some photos of a watch I picked up a while ago but haven't yet touched. It's a Bucherer chronometer, but I don't know what is inside as I haven't yet opened it. As you can see it has been badly treated at the back - it looks to me like some "watchmaker" has made more space by knocking dents into the back of the case! The chap who sold it to me let me have it for a good price as he reckoned someone had welded the case shut. I can actually see why he thought that, but I assume it is a solid case that has been badly treated/damaged by people trying to open it anyway.

The bezel comes off easily enough, so I think it must be a split stem to get the movement out. I've not had one of these before - is there any way to be sure? I'm not that keen on the idea of just pulling on it to find out. How do you remove split stems anyway? Thanks

 

Stephen

 

[Geo]

I think you may well be right Stephen. What a mess that case is in, it's incredible the damage some folk inflict on watches!

[Ishima]

It looks like that Bucherer has been well...butchered. (too easy?)

My normal method is to prop the case up on a casing cushion, get a pair of tweezers, unclick the winder to time set position, and simply slide the tweezers behind the crown while using blocking the crown from flying across the bench, pushing down until the incline gets wide enough that the winder disengages. 

There's a small chance that might mark the case however, so my alternative method is to use an old pair of these hand lifts


I have a pair where i removed the center section (get's in the way a bit if it's there, but still works), making it practically identical to the dedicated burgeon tool for crown removal. Sometimes it doesn't work if you can't find a point for the plastic blocks on the side to anchor against. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ishima

[chadders1966]

Thanks guys, yes it's a mess at the back but looks fine from the front. Hopefully I can get it useable again, but I'm not going to rush it. Ishima I tried your second method, worked fine thanks very much. Here are a couple more photos from the inside. First the back - it looks even worse from the inside, this is where the butcher really went to work I think. Presumably the rotor was catching and this was his solution. Can you get a panel beater for a watch case to sort this do you think ;)?

 

 

Second photo shows the movement, which is an ETA 2824 (also has the mark looks like RR on the plate, I'm guessing it might be BR). I was hoping it might be pristine, but far from it - quite a lot of green in there unfortunately. This will be a long job I think.

 

 

Stephen

[chadders1966]

Does anybody have the service/technical guide to the ETA2824? I have watched Marks video on the 2824-2 but prefer to have the guide with me while I work if possible. Also does anybody know what the green coating on the rotor and edge of the plate is? I'm guessing some kind of mold, and wonder if it will simply come off with a clean. Thanks

Stephen

[Geo]

This should help you Stephen :- https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Z2xlYXZlYW5kY28uY29tfHRlY2huaWNhbHxneDo1OTQwZTE1YzkyZWY1NmZi

The green that you are seeing will be verdigris and it should come off with some careful cleaning in a solution of baking soda. Add half a teaspoon of baking soda to a cup of water the soak the parts in it until the verdigris disappears. You can gently scrub with an old toothbrush to help remove the corrosion.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=verdigris&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB648GB648&oq=verdigre&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.4094j0j7&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&hl=en-GB#imgrc=_

[chadders1966]

That's great, thanks very much for that. I like to have it available if possible just to remind me what to do, and in what order ;). As far as I'm aware the only difference between the 2824 and 2824-2 is in the keyless works so this should be just fine.

I've had a quick look through and find it interesting that when it comes to the keyless works ETA say lubricate with thick oil or grease, but then state D5/HP1300. I would normally think of using grease here - I wonder why they say oil? I suppose it doesn't make much difference if you can do either.

Stephen

[oldhippy]

Working on movements wit a two piece stem, I would just pull just behind the button with my pair of nippers. I don't think a watchmaker would have done the damage more like someone who didn't know anything about watches. Are you thinking of getting a new case?

[chadders1966]

Working on movements wit a two piece stem, I would just pull just behind the button with my pair of nippers. I don't think a watchmaker would have done the damage more like someone who didn't know anything about watches. Are you thinking of getting a new case?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant watchmaker ironically - whoever did this was clearly an idiot/vandal/phillistine. I don't see any hope of salvaging the case so will probably need a new one. I'll have to see if the movements OK first though.

[chadders1966]

Well I finally got round to opening it up and stripping down - as stated it's an ETA2824. It's actually not in a bad condition overall, jewels are fine, pivots are good. There was a lot of dried up gunk, particularly in the barrel for some reason. The dial is pretty good, a bit of gentle cleaning with a dab of distilled water should do it. The hands may well need reluming or replacing.

As it is a chronometer I think it would be worth me spending some time and money on it, but I need to think about how much as I will definitely need to find a new case. The following are the problems I have found:

1. Mainspring is shot, needs a new one. Cousins don't have one - where to source? Ranfft says 1.2 x 11 x 0.115.

2. One of the reversing wheels fell apart. Can these be put back together? If not where to find? Again Cousins doesn't have. Are they interchangeable with other ETA movements? I can see some on EBay for the 2824, either Chinese copies which might not be compatible or they are aftermarket and still cost a fair bit.

3. The rotor had been changed at some point I would think. I can't imagine a decent quality watch not having an engraved one. I am currently watching a couple of watches on EBay which might help with this, and with the other items.

4. I need a new case!

Initially I am going to just source the mainspring and see how the watch runs after a clean and oil, then decide if I want to do more. Any help/advice welcome. Thanks

Stephen

[bobm12]

Hi Stephen,

 

The rotor and the mainspring (the actual mainspring: barrel complete) are available from many places including ebay and cousinsUK (if I'm not mistaken). Remember that the ETA 2824 belongs to the same family as the 2801, so those same parts for the 2801, 2836, 2804, 2840, 2842 and more are OK to use. Also, a generic mainspring from CousinsUK can be had but in my mind, it is more cost efficient to get the barrel complete. I don't know offhand the numbers but a quick search in cousinsUK will prove successful. Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[chadders1966]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the response. Part of the reason I was asking is because I don't know what is compatible. I have been searching for 2824 but little exists for this. I know that 2824.2 is largely compatible, but I don't know which other calibres are so I don't know what to look for. If the movement works well with a new mainspring I will be looking for a reversing wheel as well. Can I just get one for any 28**, or might they be different sizes? If there was a reference I could use to show which parts are interchangeable that would help.

The rotor is a different issue, that is just for appearance. I sm looking for one engraved Bucherer, there is one currently up for auction on eBay. Cheers.

Stephen

[bobm12]

The reversing wheel is probably available from ebay and I'm not too sure but they should work too for all 28** (careful some 28** are not the same family so limited compatibility if any). You can see the compatibility in the parts list of each movement. They usually have the same part numbers but again, nothing is given for granted. One place to visit that will give you some reference is ofrei.com, they tend to explain a little about parts.

 

Back to the reversing wheels, I've seen them sold separately but due to special lubrication requirements they are often bought with the whole automatic set (all included. It comes assembled and ready to use from the factory)...it is a much more expensive option so I personally re-use the old one (when servicing my stuff of course,...I believe ETA recommends this replacement in every service?). If you decide to service this subsystem, you'll need a special oil for it but there is also a formula (instead of the "ETA recommended" oil) that use regular oils (9010 I think mixed with something else), that works and is cheaper. I have all those notes somewhere! :)

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[StuartBaker104]

Stephen,

There is a site which can be great for checking interchangeability. In this case you are in luck as the reverser wheel seems to have loads of equivalents. I don't know if this copied link will work http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=e[aKZH

If not, do this:

1. Google "Jules Borel" and go to their home page

2. Bottom left of their home page, click the link for "watch material database"

3. Click "search for parts from A to E"

4. Click "ETA"

5. Scroll down to 2824 and click

6. Find the part you want and click

7. This brings up a list of equivalents

8. Feel guilty about the fact you go on to buy the part from Cousins

Hope that helps

S

[chadders1966]

Bob

As I said before I don't have much choice about the reversing wheel as one of them fell apart. I don't know if it is possible to fit the four pieces back together, but it doesn't look like it to me. I don't know if anyone else knows any different.

Stuart

Thanks very much for that link, just what I was looking for. I actually never look at Jules Borel as I have requested an account a number of times but they have never responded - I wouldn't feel any guilt about not buying from them as they won't let me ;)!

Stephen

[chadders1966]

I've managed to make progress on this, won an auction for another Bucherer 2824 that had all the parts I needed. I'm in the process of going through both movements, picking out the best of each but I have a problem :(. I have the part in the attached photo (got two actually) and I've no idea what it is. It looks like something from the keyless works, but I've assembled that and I don't seem to be missing anything. Is it to do with the calendar perhaps? Again I can't see where. I've tried looking for a parts diagram, but I can only find the one for the 2824-2 that Geo already gave me. I can't see it on there, but I know there are some differences between the two. Can anybody help me and tell me what it is? Thanks

 

Stephen

 

 

[StuartBaker104]

Hi Stephen,

Looks like the date jumper - part 2576

You will find the parts sheet for the 2824 on Cousins website, it's not obvious, but listed under "Eta 2801,4,6,16,17,19,24,26,34" - Parts 1 & 2.

Rgds

S

[chadders1966]

Stuart

Thanks very much, that's really helpful. Now that you've pointed it out it seems obvious - hopefully I'd have figured it out when I found the date wasn't working ;)! Cheers

Stephen

[chadders1966]

Finally got round to finishing this, thought I'd just post a couple of quick phone photos. It worked out quite well as I had another none working watch with an ETA 2824 I borrowed the case from, and I was fortunate enough to find another poor conditionBucherer 2824 chronometer grade very cheap for spares, including the all important rotor with markings.

Despite years of neglect and various things growing on it, the timekeeping is superb so far, there is a beat error of 0.2 which I might just leave. Although not normally my style I've put it on a flex band I got from another watch, seems to suit it well. The dial is in great condition, the hands also are good although I did have to relume them. All in all I'm pleased with it.

Stephen

 

[Cad101]

You've done an excellent job there that's my kind of watch.

Mick

[bobm12]

Good job Stephen! Glad it came through all right!

Cheers,

Bob

[Geo]

That looks great Stephen.  It deserves a nice leather strap to make it look rel classy.

[chadders1966]

On 10/04/2016 at 10:15 AM, Geo said:

That looks great Stephen.  It deserves a nice leather strap to make it look rel classy.

Just for you

[oldhippy]

That's looking much better you have a nice looking watch. I like the colour of the dial.