Watch Oil

[MordensWatchRepair]

I understand that they have discontinued Moebius D5 and have replaced it with 9104. However I hear there is some problems with 9104. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks: Steve

[Vich]

The D5 has been an essential bit of kit for ages now, it will be a shame to see it go. I notice that Ofrei give this info:

Moebius 9104 Synthetic Oil Synt-HP 1300

Moebius Synt-HP 1300 is a high pressure oil with the viscosity of 1300. The excellent ageing stability ensures a constant viscosity over a long time. High pressure resistance as well as a superior lubricating and adherence capacity. For use on mechanical watches' where you normally would apply Moebius D-5 on the gear train, barrel-arbor, steel/steel frictions-partners; as well as for board instruments, micromotors, mini-ballbearings, etc.

The recommend shelf life of this product is 6 years.

It seems that the "Natural" D5 is eventually to be supplanted by the Synthesized 9104. Either way it will not be cheap. 6 years shelf life is impressive though. They will probably make more money by keeping them both.

For purely stubborn and pig headed Luddite style reasons I will stay with the D5 hopefully it will still be available for a while.

Hope Canthus joins in as he can probably shed some light.

Cheers,

Vic

[Vich]

PS About £68.00 for 20 ml of 9104 and £ 24.00 for 20 ml of D5 may be a factor

Cheers,

Vic

[canthus]

Hi folks, in response to Vich,

D5 is mineral oil based and HP1300 is PAO (polyalphaoelfin) based.  PAO is basically synthesised mineral oil, which means most of the undesirable elements of a mineral oil are removed by reforming molecules into an oil rather than cleaning-up what you get naturally from the refining process.

 

Typical Properties are as follows

                                                              D5                      HP1300                 HP1000

Viscosity at 0c, Cst                              7300                      5900                       4700

Viscosity at 20c, Cst                            1200                      1267                       1013

Viscosity at 40c, Cst                              175                        307                         295    

Pour Point degC                                    -18                          -41                         -39

Evap loss test, %                                  0.83                       0.59                        0.56

Baader Ageing Test %                 +2% after 12 days     +7% after 50 days    +7% after 50 days

 

I have also included HP1000 as some use this instead of D5

 

HP1300 has similar viscosity (runnyness) at 20c (an industry standard temp and near a typical average daytime temp) to D5 with HP1000 a little thinner.  At higher and lower temps the viscosity change with D5 is significantly more than HP1300 and HP1000.  Loss of viscosity at higher temps can mean that the oil film can be broken and lead to more wear.  Increase in viscosity at low temps means the oil film is more viscous and so the mainspring has to work harder and the watch may slow. Therefore the HP series will have less effect where temps vary greatly.

 

The pour point is the temp at which the oil ceases to flow and so the lower the better, especially in winter conditions.

 

The Evaporative Loss test is measured after exposing a fixed volume of oil to 100C for 5 days, and again D5 is inferior to HP.  This is basically a measure of how quickly the oil will 'dry out'.  It can also indicate what gummy residues are formed as the oil thickens.  This could be important in high temp environments.

 

The viscosity change (Baader) test measures the change in viscosity over a period of time at a constant temp.  Unfortunately the Moebius figures are for different time periods, this test has check points for stopping testing.  Effectively the HP are again superior in this aspect. What this means is that HP will hold their viscosity better (confirming long term viscosity stability at various temps as discussed above).

 

Therefore the HP series are certainly better than D5 based on above. One other factor is the lubricity (slipperiness) of the oil and D5 needs an additive to enhance this to HP's natural levels.  This additive will be 'consumed' in normal service and therefore the D5 oil will be less effective over time.

 

Only downside is cost, but shelf life is longer for HP and small quantities are available and will last a long time if used carefully.  I myself would always go for the synthetic oils over natural oils whenever possible.

 

HP series also contain a dye (red for HP1300) which may not be desirable in high end watches and/or where the movement is visible through a crystal case-back.  I believe undyed versions are available but maybe not in the very small volume packs.

 

Hope this helps and not too deep!

[Vich]

That was spot on Canthus and thanks for the info.

 

D5 always seems to stay where its put and at this point in time I have a new stock of D5 so will see it finished first, however, I may well change over eventually after reading your recommendation.  You can get 2ml of 9104 for £13.00.  I don't know what the problems with 9104 that Mordens has heard about are, perhaps they can advise..

 

At least Room Temperature and "wrist temperature" is going to be nearer the 20C mark at which point the viscosity is not too dissimilar. 

 

Some of my watches are older than me so they were probably used to getting Whale oil ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

Edited January 16, 2016 by Vich

[MordensWatchRepair]

Thank you Vich for all that information, very valuable. I heard from a watchmaker from British Columbia that there is an problem with 9104, but I don't know what it is.

[bobm12]

I can tell you what is ONE of the problems: Too expensive!  :) Hopefully if there is ANOHER problem they might want to lower the price to eliminate the FIRST problem! :)

[JohnR725]

For those that want to see the detailed specifications test results etc. for the HP oil and they nicely included D5 in the results PDF attached.

SYNT-HP oil 992_O20737_40.pdf

[MordensWatchRepair]

Thank you John for that