Any ideas how to make this dial usable?

[Bill2024]

I bought a cheapo eBay watch which I wanted to try and “restore”. The movement is a Tissot 27B-21 which runs and looks very clean. The case and dial are a different matter!  My main aim is to practice on the movement and try to get it running as well as I can.

I’d like to end up with a usable watch at the end but I fear that the dial is a lost cause. It’s badly stained and scratched. One nice thing though is the old style Tissot logo which matches the logo on the inside of the case back. I know that cleaning dials is generally a non-starter for fear of making them worse; but it’s hard to imagine I could make this much worse.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how it might be worth trying to clean this?  I was also wondering if I could go drastic and strip the lacquer completely, leaving the gold hour markers and logo intact. Sorry if this is heretical talk but, for me at least, the current dial is not usable.

I can’t tell if someone has had a go at cleaning already between the 8 and 9?

Thanks, Bill

[AndyGSi]

As nothing apart from the Swiss Made appears to be painted, as you say I don't think you've got a lot to loose.

I'd start with saliva on a cotton bud and go from their.

[mikepilk]

59 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I'd start with saliva on a cotton bud and go from their.

That's what I do. Saliva works well (at least mine does but that might be due to the alcohol content  )

Then I would try naphtha (lighter fluid) , then IPA - but only the tiniest amount on the very edge to start with to see the effect.

[Bill2024]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

That's what I do. Saliva works well (at least mine does but that might be due to the alcohol content  )

Then I would try naphtha (lighter fluid) , then IPA - but only the tiniest amount on the very edge to start with to see the effect.

Thanks @AndyGSi @mikepilk

I just did a quick test and the saliva was certainly removing some of the staining. The temptation to really go for it and use too much pressure is almost overwhelming but I’ll keep at it and see where we get to. 

[Mercurial]

Rather than rubbing with pressure, you’re far less likely to damage the dial if you use a rolling action to clean it. 

Wet a q-tip or similar shaped foam swab and roll it over the surface. It’s slow, but it’s very gentle. 

I hope that helps,

Mark

[Bill2024]

5 hours ago, Mercurial said:

Rather than rubbing with pressure, you’re far less likely to damage the dial if you use a rolling action to clean it. 

Wet a q-tip or similar shaped foam swab and roll it over the surface. It’s slow, but it’s very gentle. 

I hope that helps,

Mark

Thanks - yes that makes sense. I’ll try that. 

[Bill2024]

So this is where I’m up to. Just using saliva and a piece of paper towel wrapped around a small plastic stick. 

It’s still not a thing of great beauty but better than it was!

I’ll go over it again but it almost feels like all the staining is in the top layer of lacquer, so it might be interesting to try and remove that without destroying what’s underneath. Somehow . 

[AndyGSi]

I think for the age of the watch and considering what it looked like previously I'd just leave it as is.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

So this is where I’m up to. Just using saliva and a piece of paper towel wrapped around a small plastic stick. 

It’s still not a thing of great beauty but better than it was!

 Ye thats as far as salivamatic works, unless you wanta try putting saliva on top of one stain only, give it some time to  peneterate  deeper.  Worth a try on one stain. 

 

[JohnR725]

Typically with dials it's recommended not to do anything at all because typically they don't do well to anything especially if they're painted dials. If there are enameled dials like found in American pocket watches then they can go in water and all sorts of cleaning and will clean up quite nicely. Or some American pocket watches use engraved brass dials filled in with wax or something like they did with clock dials and then silvered. With fee is you can strip off the lacquer and dip them in one dip silver cleaning brightening solution. That actually works really well and then unfortunately you have to lacquer it again because with the silver exposed it will tarnish. Seeing as how you are able to clean up or dial the way you did you may build a try some of the liquid silver tarnish remover. But whatever you do you typically want to be careful as even if you think you know what you're doing bad things can still occur. Which would result in either finding a replacement dial or sending it out to be refinished after somebody on your part of the planet that does that kind of thing.

[Klassiker]

If I were you I'd be very pleased with the result so far, and quit while I'm ahead.

[Bill2024]

21 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Ye thats as far as salivamatic works, unless you wanta try putting saliva on top of one stain only, give it some time to  peneterate  deeper.  Worth a try on one stain. 

 

Yes I think you’re right. I gave it one more go but it seemed barely to make a difference so I think it’s time to restrain myself and stop!

@AndyGSi @Klassiker - stopping while I’m ahead is definitely the way to here!  Now I need to figure out what to do with the case. Most of the chrome has flaked off and is showing the base metal - brass I think. Polishing wheel and electroplating à la Nekkid Watchmaker needed! Maybe one day. 

Final result:

[AndyGSi]

How bad is the case and have you looked to see if there's anyone in your area that does plating?

[Bill2024]

14 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

How bad is the case and have you looked to see if there's anyone in your area that does plating?

I haven’t checked locally for plating but I’ll take a look. 

The case is pretty rough I think, so not sure what I could do with it. If possible I’d like to try and polish it up by hand - perhaps taking it back to the brass - and then see whether I could achieve any kind of plated finish for a fairly low cost. Maybe just nickel plating?

The crystal is also cracked and scratched (the image of it is after having a little go with polywatch), and I can’t figure out how to remove one of the spring bars. It is different to the one on the other end and doesn’t seem to have anything to get hold of with the removal tool. 

I can see a couple of service marks in the case back so I guess it has been looked at a couple of times at least. From the serial number it seems the watch was made in 1956. 

Edited April 9 by Bill2024
Typos

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

The case is pretty rough I think, so not sure what I could do with it. If possible I’d like to try and polish it up by hand - perhaps taking it back to the brass - and then see whether I could achieve any kind of played finish for a fairly low cost. Maybe just nickel plating?

It's quite a lot of work to get it back to brass and replate with nickel. The finish you get on the nickel will be the brass finish you achieve - nickel does not fill any defects. So you need a polished finish with no defects. I plate with copper before nickel as it can be plated thick enough to fill pits and defects. But then I have to polish again before the nickel.

You can do home plating quite cheaply, there are plenty of Youtube videos showing DIY nickel plating. 

[AndyGSi]

I second what @mikepilk said about plating.

Looks like you'll just have to cut that spring bar.

Most of the time I'll just replace the acrylic unless it's a special or strange shape.

[Bill2024]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

It's quite a lot of work to get it back to brass and replate with nickel. The finish you get on the nickel will be the brass finish you achieve - nickel does not fill any defects. So you need a polished finish with no defects. I plate with copper before nickel as it can be plated thick enough to fill pits and defects. But then I have to polish again before the nickel.

You can do home plating quite cheaply, there are plenty of Youtube videos showing DIY nickel plating. 

Thanks, that’s interesting about using copper first. I’ll  try and get the case as smooth as I can and then try copper and nickel.

Is there anything recommended for doing the prep if the case by hand? I have some of the eze-lap diamond paddles which may work for the initial stages (the finest is 1200 grit), but I guess I’ll need something finer to get a decent polish. Thanks. 

[AndyGSi]

Have a look at this post for options on polishing.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Bill2024 said:

Thanks, that’s interesting about using copper first. I’ll  try and get the case as smooth as I can and then try copper and nickel.

It's called a copper strike and has a few different functions. Depending on what the base metal is, and it's condition, a copper strike can improve the top nickel plate adhesion and gives the base metal an overall better finish to start the nickel plating process. It's main reason is help visually check that the plating process is working ok, to find surface defects before the nickel plate is added. If something isn't right, the copper undercoat is easier to remove than the nickel.  If the copper strike looks good and is adhering then all should be fine to carry on with the top nickel coating. 

[praezis]

1 hour ago, Bill2024 said:

Is there anything recommended for doing the prep if the case by hand?

Use cheap emery sticks, half-round and flat, starting at about 220 grit.

Hold the case firm in a vice between wood or plasic, best are those that you can swivel to all positions.

Frank

N.B. To strip the chrome, put the case for few minutes into hydrochloric acid. If it is still there after 30 minutes, it is most probably nickel.

Edited April 9 by praezis

[Neverenoughwatches]

Some might find this idea useful. My son owns a bar, which is handy.

If you have lots of different cork sizes like me ( I don't drink ) you can usually find one thats a good tight fit inside the case. If not , find one that's close undersize and bang a wedge down the middle of the cork to expand it, like wedging a handle for something. 

I also use corks for sittings domed acrylics on when polishing them. Stick a sponge on the cork end and squeeze the crystal over it.

Like so.

[AndyGSi]

32 minutes ago, praezis said:

hydrochloric acid

This is dangerous stuff even in weak concentrations and to least here in the UK is only available to businesses.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It's called a copper strike and has a few different functions. Depending on what the base metal is, and it's condition, a copper strike can improve the top nickel plate adhesion and gives the base metal an overall better finish to start the nickel plating process. It's main reason is help visually check that the plating process is working ok, to find surface defects before the nickel plate is added. If something isn't right, the copper undercoat is easier to remove than the nickel.  If the copper strike looks good and is adhering then all should be fine to carry on with the top nickel coating. 

 As I understand it, the main reason for a copper strike is that copper plates better over most surfaces than nickel and provides better adhesion for the nickel. Not for showing defects, though it would do that. As the layer is very thin it doesn't require further work before further plating.

If plating on well prepared brass, I don't think a copper strike would be worth the effort.

I usually do a much thicker copper layer to fill defects. This does need refinishing back to shape. If doing this you may need to protect some parts such as threads, as too much copper build up can block them (as I know from experience )

You can grind the nickel away but it's hard work. I use a nickel removing solution and reverse electrolysis - takes a minute or two.

I like the cork idea Rich. I have lots of corks around (as I do drink ) and will be doing that in future

Edited April 9 by mikepilk

[Bill2024]

17 hours ago, praezis said:

Use cheap emery sticks, half-round and flat, starting at about 220 grit.

Hold the case firm in a vice between wood or plasic, best are those that you can swivel to all positions.

Frank

N.B. To strip the chrome, put the case for few minutes into hydrochloric acid. If it is still there after 30 minutes, it is most probably nickel.

Emery sticks sounds like a plan. It might even be time to get Dremel and some polishing wheels. 

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You can grind the nickel away but it's hard work. I use a nickel removing solution and reverse electrolysis - takes a minute or two.

That sounds interesting. Is there a particular setup you use to do this? Is it just reversing the polarity (nickel plated item on the negative terminal) and a copper (or similar) electrode on the positive, all in a non-corrosive solution

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some might find this idea useful. My son owns a bar, which is handy.

If you have lots of different cork sizes like me ( I don't drink ) you can usually find one thats a good tight fit inside the case. If not , find one that's close undersize and bang a wedge down the middle of the cork to expand it, like wedging a handle for something. 

I also use corks for sittings domed acrylics on when polishing them. Stick a sponge on the cork end and squeeze the crystal over it.

Like so.

I love that idea. I don’t really drink either (and the kids don’t own a bar) but I am prepared to take one for the team to get a few corks! 

Edited April 10 by Bill2024

[mikepilk]

11 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

Emery sticks sounds like a plan. It might even be time to get Dremel and some polishing wheels. 

Using wheels on the Dremel, the problem is nickel is hard and brass soft, so you need to be quite aggressive to remove the nickel, but be careful not to damage the brass. I've done it, but it's a lot of work. Much easier to use reverse electrolysis. If in the UK I buy Nickel Stripping Solution from 

https://youplate.co.uk/products/nickel-stripping-solution

It's a mixture of mainly strong sulphuric acid  - you can find the recipe online to make your own.

This guy uses vinegar, seems to work. You need to keep checking as too long and the brass will be pitted