First movement = First broken movement

[Terrinecold]

Hello,

I am just starting to learn how to hopefully service mechanical watchs

Right now I started by acquiring a bunch of tools and a first practice movement (ST36).  Since I got it last week I have been practicing disassembling and reassembling it (I don't yet have the tools and products for washing and lubrication as I estimated that the first step is the manipulation required for assembly and disassembly).

To be quite honest the result have been interesting.  My first step was breaking the setting lever screw when I was trying to remove the stem (OK practice movement won't be able to set time, oh well).

I did manage to mostly disassemble the movement (I kept the balance together, didn't open the barrel and didn't remove any jewels).

I messed up the balance spring a bit when removing the balance (I think the impulse jewel was still in the fork or something). There was  a small tangle.

I reassembled everything and surprise the movement came back to life.

I disassembled it again and decided I will try to fix the hairspring.  So with lots of trouble I removed it from the balance and when trying to fix it I made more of a mess.  After reinstalling everything the balance won't oscillate (likely the spring rubbing on things, either the plate or the cock).

Right now I wait for my second st36 and continue practicing while slowly buying what I need to wash parts and lubricate them.

 

Any of you think there is a chance I can repair that spring or find a balance complete for that movement which will cost less than the whole movement?

[RichardHarris123]

You have the right idea, buy another and keep practicing. I can't find a new balance wheel, so go ahead and try to repair the one you have.  Watch plenty of videos first. 

[Terrinecold]

Thanks for the advice.  I did watch some from the Watch Smith and Chrono Glide.  So I think I understand the theory.  In practice though I had trouble figuring out what to do because the spring is not just warped from the horizontal plane and out of center (at least I found where that is happening) it is also entangled.

Anyway I am keeping that as a project for when I'll be more practiced.

Another thing is that this WE I got a stereo microscope and everything was so much easier with it.  I am pretty sure I wouldn't have had the balance problem had I seen better what I was doing.

[Neverenoughwatches]

48 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

Hello,

I am just starting to learn how to hopefully service mechanical watchs

Right now I started by acquiring a bunch of tools and a first practice movement (ST36).  Since I got it last week I have been practicing disassembling and reassembling it (I don't yet have the tools and products for washing and lubrication as I estimated that the first step is the manipulation required for assembly and disassembly).

To be quite honest the result have been interesting.  My first step was breaking the setting lever screw when I was trying to remove the stem (OK practice movement won't be able to set time, oh well).

I did manage to mostly disassemble the movement (I kept the balance together, didn't open the barrel and didn't remove any jewels).

I messed up the balance spring a bit when removing the balance (I think the impulse jewel was still in the fork or something). There was  a small tangle.

I reassembled everything and surprise the movement came back to life.

I disassembled it again and decided I will try to fix the hairspring.  So with lots of trouble I removed it from the balance and when trying to fix it I made more of a mess.  After reinstalling everything the balance won't oscillate (likely the spring rubbing on things, either the plate or the cock).

Right now I wait for my second st36 and continue practicing while slowly buying what I need to wash parts and lubricate them.

 

Any of you think there is a chance I can repair that spring or find a balance complete for that movement which will cost less than the whole movement?

Hairsprings are repairable to an extent. To obtain a reliable answer it needs to be viewed. I have a feeling replacement parts for these clone movements are difficult to obtain. 

[Terrinecold]

I can take pictures when I am home of what it looks like.  They will be phone picture as I don't have a camera in my microscope yet but I should be able to take a few views to give a good idea of the damage.

[clockboy]

The best advice I received when starting watch repair was don’t force anything.. screws, lifting bridges etc etc.. The other vital skill is using tweezers without losing the part., for me never hold a part tightly and the tweezers must be dressed.

[VWatchie]

No hurry getting into balance hairspring work. It belongs to advanced repair. Nevertheless, the Chronglide videos are helpful (there are several) and here is one for dealing with entangled springs. Best of luck!

 

[Terrinecold]

Thanks all for your support.  Yes I did watch the chronoglide videos and also I knew that hairspring repair was likely too advanced for me.

That being said what made me try it is: 

1. I thought I couldn't make it worse (I was wrong).
2. In the end this is a practice movement without a watch so while it is very sad that it doesn't run at all, it was already broken due to the setting lever screw broken so not much to loose.

I took some pictures but I don't think they really show the problem.  maybe one with the balance in the movement would help more?  Or should I detach the spring from the balance before taking a picture

[LittleWatchShop]

It appears to me that you have overlapped the hairspring.  Hard to say for sure with the pictures you provide.  If so, it is one of the easiest hairspring fixes.  You will have to remove it from the balance cock and the balance wheel to do it right.  There are videos that show how this is done.  Off hand I dont recall where they are.

Having said this, preforming this repair is advanced work.  Put it aside and come back to it in six months to a year.  Otherwise, you might make it worse.

[eccentric59]

The ST36 isn't an expensive movement, so it might be easier to just get a replacement for parts. Here's a listing in the U.S. for $33 + $3 shipping. Once you get current movement running you can tackle the tangles hairspring without the pressure of making it worse.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353824212893?itmmeta=01HYDN4TGZSXFCW4TXZ2THH0C1&hash=item526191079d:g:sT4AAOSwHidhcQO6&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8Jw5K76smZgFGzM5ubLY769v%2B6EbBphCYo99M48gxLxxMjir9tRyn32O8Q5AgmKh1aKUP%2FfaCOIz8a7YMGkflhGWus7BDQIzrs45yo8NCZ66Jmti1Qli2%2BjaAm%2F8Ogg81F17LdC5Ulu54cnXSOCtaMkQcp03pcluBqTAuZPxbYwkrOC38sb%2FtlDewlZBOhjtA7pZTTMAql7hFKbrkc5RyF%2BtGL2%2Br9BS7mzgd%2BxdDF08HcVn6rvOawDjEbMPs9mYSegv6DVnSoiYYpMGzPJE7Qyd782Brjl05GQTL9MzpFuWrQvUTNxyY5%2BNQi18XTmf4A%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8yok7XzYw

[Terrinecold]

Thank you for the advice.  Actually I have already ordered a replacement one as soon as I broke the setting lever screw.  It is supposed to arrive today or tomorrow, I got it from AliExpress for $27.51.

In the meantime this Sunday I got from amazon the cheapest mechanical watch I could find (a pocket watch with a 2650G movement).  That movement is now sitting disassembled and waiting for reassembly.  I have to say I found that movement pretty ugly compared to the ST36.  The fact that it is skeletonized and center second made it interesting but all the bridges feel very bad quality.

One thing which happened with this one (due to the skeleton nature) is that I had trouble removing the hands with my presto tool (I have levers on order but not arrived yet).  I bent a bit the little retainer (the part at the bottom of the picture).  Then later on I couldn't find the cannon pinion.  I finally found it it was in the hour wheel.  I must have pulled it out a bit initially and then oil kept it in there.

The other thing which happened is that when I tried to open the case back which the back crystal (plastic, glued) came out.  

 

 

Anyway tonight is reassembly time for this one.

I also have an NH35 and a Mingzu 2813 on order.

One question:  I was thinking about getting some old soviet movements which I see on ebay for pretty cheap.  All that to keep practicing and hopefully learn not to break anything before I start trying to service a real watch.

Edited May 21 by Terrinecold

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

No hurry getting into balance hairspring work. It belongs to advanced repair. Nevertheless, the Chronglide videos are helpful (there are several) and here is one for dealing with entangled springs. Best of luck!

 

Ahh the master mangler, we have a new member here that met him.

[Terrinecold]

On 5/21/2024 at 3:29 AM, VWatchie said:

No hurry getting into balance hairspring work. It belongs to advanced repair. Nevertheless, the Chronglide videos are helpful (there are several) and here is one for dealing with entangled springs. Best of luck!

 

Thanks to this video I undid the tangle. 
The spring is still out of round and the watch is still not starting when I put the balance in place. 
Since now I have a second movement, I’ll try swapping the balances to confirm that is the issue

The result is not very conclusive. Swapping the balance didn’t make the first movement work. BUT, when putting the good balance back in the good movement I had a hard enough time doing it (it did work in the end but I think my problem is managing to sit the balance pivot in its bottom jewel or to fit the impulse jewel into the fork) that I keep wondering if the failure in the case of the old movement is because I broke it or because I am not good enough at reinstalling balances. 

I confirm that the main issue is between the seat and the tweezers. 
after more effort the first movement with its own bal and ou of shape spring started. 
No doubt the time keeping will not be good but IT’S ALIVE! 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

Thanks to this video I undid the tangle. 
The spring is still out of round and the watch is still not starting when I put the balance in place. 
Since now I have a second movement, I’ll try swapping the balances to confirm that is the issue

The result is not very conclusive. Swapping the balance didn’t make the first movement work. BUT, when putting the good balance back in the good movement I had a hard enough time doing it (it did work in the end but I think my problem is managing to sit the balance pivot in its bottom jewel or to fit the impulse jewel into the fork) that I keep wondering if the failure in the case of the old movement is because I broke it or because I am not good enough at reinstalling balances. 

Best way to determine if there is an issue with the first balance assembly to take a few pictures of it from a few different angles and post them here. As a beginner it can be difficult to figure out if something is broken or not, you need to know what something in good working order should look like first .

[LittleWatchShop]

To get the fork to engage the roller jewel, preset the fork toward the center of the movement.  Then as you are bringing the balance to the movement rotate it 90 degrees CW w/r to its final position.  Then as you drop the balance in, rotate the cock CCW toward the final position. Let the cock rest in the final position as you gently adjust the balance into position.  With power on the train, the balance will engage with the fork and start to oscillate.  That tells you that you have the bottom pivot in place.  Then while holding the cock with a piece of pegwood, adjust the balance until the upper pivot falls in place.

This is my method.  I am sure I did not come up with it...saw some video some years back.  Perhaps one of Mark's

[Terrinecold]

@LittleWatchShop thank you for the advice. 

@Neverenoughwatches here are all the angles I could think of. If some are missing I can take more. Sorry for the quality they are taken through a phone. 

@Neverenoughwatches here are all the angles I could think of. If some are missing I can take more. Sorry for the quality they are taken through a phone.

 

Note that after I was so happy to see it oscillate I screwed the cock and it stopped. I have been trying to make it restart since

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Terrinecold said:

@LittleWatchShop thank you for the advice. 

@Neverenoughwatches here are all the angles I could think of. If some are missing I can take more. Sorry for the quality they are taken through a phone. 

@Neverenoughwatches here are all the angles I could think of. If some are missing I can take more. Sorry for the quality they are taken through a phone.

 

Note that after I was so happy to see it oscillate I screwed the cock and it stopped. I have been trying to make it restart since

I was initially thinking the pivots and roller pin needed to be viewed very closely as you thought you may have damaged them. But the hairspring looks out of shape and bunched up . Its important for its shape to be concentric so that it can oscillate freely without any of the coils touching. I would begin by opening up the regulating pins by turning the brass etachron stud, this will free up some breathing space for the hairspring, the stud can be readjusted to close the pins back up when the shape has been fixed. The beat arm holds the steel coloured stud, this should change the spring's shape to something more concentric looking. This is the kind shape that you want to make.

[HectorLooi]

The hairspring is overlapping at the spot where the arrow is pointing. As @LittleWatchShop said, put this away until you have gained more practice.

Fixing this involves removing the balance from the cock and then removing the hairspring from the balance. Then you'll need to reshape the coils until you have a smooth spiral, refix the hairspring to the cock and reform the terminal curve and centre the collet.

All that is advanced work but doable when you have more practice and improved your dexterity. And you'll need a microscope for that kind of work. 

In the meantime, bag it up and put a note in the bag stating the fault, in case you forget in a few months time. (Don't ask me how I know.) And stick the bag to somewhere prominent, to remind you to work towards being able to fix that.

You'll ruin a few more watches in the near future. Trust me, we have all done that. When I broke my first watch, my mentor told me, "Learn from your mistakes and move on."

Good luck and don't give up. Practice practice practice.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The hairspring is overlapping at the spot where the arrow is pointing. 

I initially thought the same Hector,  but i dont see an overlap in the hanging balance .

[HectorLooi]

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I initially thought the same Hector,  but i dont see an overlap in the hanging balance .

The hairspring collet is so off-centered that when the balance is put in it's pivot holes, the 2nd coil overlaps the 1st.

[rjenkinsgb]

45 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I initially thought the same Hector,  but i dont see an overlap in the hanging balance

There is a double kink or Z bend around here:

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The hairspring collet is so off-centered that when the balance is put in it's pivot holes, the 2nd coil overlaps the 1st.

some adjustment of the stud's  etachron screw should set the coils position better.

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

There is a double kink or Z bend around here:

Isn't that the terminal curve?

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

There is a double kink or Z bend around here:

 

 

I thought that was the knee bend , start of the end curve Rob

[LittleWatchShop]