Omega cal 285 - poor runner

[Bonefixer]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Trying to resist saying I told you so. 

A beginner with an overcoil hairspring = 90% disaster.

We all start with confidence that we can fix these things, but we have all made these mistakes, which is why we suggested practicing on cheaper movements.

Or as @JohnR725 suggests, keep going on expensive movements then you will remember your mistakes more 

 

My old boss from when I was training in my current trade - I’m a surgeon - used to say that you can’t learn to operate without sweating a bit. I deliberately progressed to higher end movements after working on a few cheaper ones, while simultaneously acquiring some better quality tools. The Omega wasn’t exactly that expensive - £230 off eBay. It’s not going to break the bank. I’ve previously taken on a broken vintage Tudor and managed to fix it and sell it on for a bit more than I paid for it. That needed a new balance complete (the pivots were broken, and not in this case by me), mainspring and setting lever spring. I thought the Omega was a suitable next step. 
 

I’ll let you know how I get on when the new balance arrives. 

[mikepilk]

My point is that there is usually little difference in construction between 'high end' and 'standard' movements. It's usually better quality balance/hairspring, finishing, jewelling etc.  Certainly nothing you would notice when learning to work on watches.

I have watches which cost me £30-£50 with the same movements (eg ETA) as 'higher end' Tudor, Breitling etc, but as it doesn't say that on the dial, they cost 1/10 the price., but give similar performance.  I go on the movement, not what it says on the dial.

If you were learning to rebuild engines, working on a Ford would give you the same skills as working on a Ferrari engine, only a lot cheaper.

I'm just timing a Rotary with a Peseux 330 movement I bought for £19. After 24h it's within 1s. And looking at the quality of the parts, I don't see much difference between it and any of my Omega's.

Good luck with the new balance. Overcoil hairsprings are notoriously difficult to manipulate - probably the thing I least like doing.

 

[Bonefixer]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

My point is that there is usually little difference in construction between 'high end' and 'standard' movements. It's usually better quality balance/hairspring, finishing, jewelling etc.  Certainly nothing you would notice when learning to work on watches.

I have watches which cost me £30-£50 with the same movements (eg ETA) as 'higher end' Tudor, Breitling etc, but as it doesn't say that on the dial, they cost 1/10 the price., but give similar performance.  I go on the movement, not what it says on the dial.

If you were learning to rebuild engines, working on a Ford would give you the same skills as working on a Ferrari engine, only a lot cheaper.

I'm just timing a Rotary with a Peseux 330 movement I bought for £19. After 24h it's within 1s. And looking at the quality of the parts, I don't see much difference between it and any of my Omega's.

Good luck with the new balance. Overcoil hairsprings are notoriously difficult to manipulate - probably the thing I least like doing.

 

I'm sure you're right, because I don't really know much about what I'm doing. But the cheaper movements I worked on were some minimal jeweled things - one with a pin lever escapement which was awkward to rebuild - and a couple of Soviet Raketa movements, again with some success, but the build quality was clearly inferior to the Swiss ones I've tried. 
 

Decent build quality usually means ease of service - your car example is apt, but I'd use BMW/Audi rather than Ferrari as an analogy. I'm certainly not about to try my hand at servicing a Patek, but a relatively cheap non-running Omega is ok I thought. 

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

I don't really know much about what I'm doing. But the cheaper movements I worked on were some minimal jeweled things - one with a pin lever escapement which was awkward to rebuild - and a couple of Soviet Raketa movements, 

Sorry, I didn't realise you have worked on such cheap (crap) movements!  I would never have touched them.

I never buy anything unless it has at least 15 jewels and a Swiss lever escapement. If you do that, you shouldn't go far wrong. There are dozens of different Swiss manufacturers with some excellent movements for very little money, and if you stick the the 'more popular' ones, parts are easy to find and cheap.

BTW In marketing watches, the same techniques apply as in selling cars. Good advertising to get a reputation of quality (Rolex, Omega, Mercedes, Audi) and restricting supply (e.g. Rolex, Ferrari) means they can sell at a premium. In reality, Mercedes, Porsche and Audi are down the bottom end of the reliability lists.  So for pretence of quality, Audi is apt (but not BMW as I drive one  ) 

[Bonefixer]

New balance complete. It's not complete. Spring just fell off the collett and this is definitely not due to me being ham fisted. Can this even be fixed?

[mikepilk]

Where did you buy it from?

Yes, you can fix it. Re-pinning the hairspring to the collet is not difficult ... once you have lots of practice working with tweezers. Give it a go, what could go wrong?. You can always buy another. 

I would ask for a refund. 

If you want to give it a go, let us know, and we can post instructions.

BTW Do you think that if I read up a bit about surgery I would be OK to go and do my first op, or do you think I should, maybe, practice a bit first  ?

Edited March 25 by mikepilk

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Yes, you can fix it.

somewhere recently there is a discussion on centering a hairspring and I don't think this hairspring would quite qualify even without the collet as it looks like some of the coils are touching near the middle. Then were missing part of the hairspring that was in the collet. So yes a little bit of a tweak and providing get the pin out of the collet they hairspring can be reformed and re-pinned. But it's going to probably run a little bit faster as you lose some hairspring length and there's no place dad timing screws.

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I would ask for a refund. 

personally this is what I would go for.

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

BTW Do you think that if I read up a bit about surgery I would be OK to go and do my first op, or do you think I should, maybe, practice a bit first  ?

in watch repair this isn't quite the right analogy. Normally we don't want to read up on something we just want to jump in and do it. After all what's the worst that could happen? Although I suppose you could watch a YouTube video if for some unknown reason you thought you should have a clue of what you're doing.

Then the surgeon analogy is unfortunately correct in watch repair. Have you ever noticed where doctors say they're practicing they never say they're in the game they say they're practicing unfortunately that's true and watch repair you all practicing hopefully were getting better with all that practice. Because watch repair is all about learning and practicing every watches a practice watch. It's not something you instantly learn and instantly everything is perfect. Then if you want to have fun work on vintage where almost nothing works and if it does work tomorrow's another day that might decide not the mark. Then mysteriously it might decide to work again. Oh wait that was the watch is working on today now it's in the case except the setting doesn't work it didn't work before the watch when in the case I'll deal with that tomorrow.

Edited March 26 by JohnR725

[ColdWind]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:35 PM, mikepilk said:

Overcoil hairsprings are notoriously difficult to manipulate - probably the thing I least like doing.

But they vibrate beautifully, cause the spring breathes evenly, unlike flat hairspring. I wish they make a reasonable priced wrist watch with Breguet overcoil hairsrping and the balance cock is on the dial side and then show the balance through the dial then I would buy it to stare at it all day 

[nevenbekriev]

Well, after all that is said, I will only add that it will be probably much easier to repair the old hairspring, but we need pictures to see it's latest condition first.

This 'new' balance is... There is a chance to reattach the spring to the collet, but the lenght will allow only one attempt and possibly smallest quantity of the spring  is to get in the collet hole. Further shortening will not be able to be compensated by the regulator arm position. Then, the angle beginning/end will change ahd thus the isochronism will be changed too. A newbie will for sure get lost the tappered pin. Making new pin is a piece of cake and takes a minute, but a newbie will need to learn how to do it first... Then, the spring is allready distorted and will need reshaping of the internal and outer parts. Of course, if it is possible, return it to the seller.

[Bonefixer]

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Where did you buy it from?

Yes, you can fix it. Re-pinning the hairspring to the collet is not difficult ... once you have lots of practice working with tweezers. Give it a go, what could go wrong?. You can always buy another. 

I would ask for a refund. 

If you want to give it a go, let us know, and we can post instructions.

BTW Do you think that if I read up a bit about surgery I would be OK to go and do my first op, or do you think I should, maybe, practice a bit first  ?

Ebay. It was new old stock, in original Omega packing. Seller’s going to refund me. I probably will buy another, but there’s not many about. A donor movement might be a better idea if I can find one. 
 

Surgery’s a bit different to watch fiddling. You tend to start by assisting a qualified surgeon and progress from there. There are also courses and simulators. You could have a go on yourself, there are anecdotal examples of surgeons doing their own vasectomy for example, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Operating on someone else, even if they consent, would count as an assault if you’re not qualified. Similarly, at my current level, I wouldn’t take someone else’s Omega in to fix for them - could be considered criminal damage. OK to practice on one I own though. 

[praezis]

If the part came in that condition and you did nothing with it, I would call it a case of massive fraud. Lucky seller that you are a surgeon, not a lawyer.

Many watchmakers have the habit to put the old broken part into the package of the new one and keep it „in case…“. Seems you got such.

Frank

[Bonefixer]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

If the part came in that condition and you did nothing with it, I would call it a case of massive fraud. Lucky seller that you are a surgeon, not a lawyer.

Many watchmakers have the habit to put the old broken part into the package of the new one and keep it „in case…“. Seems you got such.

Frank

I prefer to believe that this part has been sitting on a shelf for over half a century and that manufacturing standards were not as exacting then as they are today. If it is a fraud case, the fraudster did a great job of sealing the package and making it appear untouched. 

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

I prefer to believe that this part has been sitting on a shelf for over half a century and that manufacturing standards were not as exacting then as they are today. If it is a fraud case, the fraudster did a great job of sealing the package and making it appear untouched. 

I tend to agree with @praezis. I think Omega were at there best in the period of your watch, 40s-60s. You chose well.

I find those from the 70s (the 10xx series) inferior quality.  Good you got a refund

[Bonefixer]

12 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, after all that is said, I will only add that it will be probably much easier to repair the old hairspring, but we need pictures to see it's latest condition first.

This 'new' balance is... There is a chance to reattach the spring to the collet, but the lenght will allow only one attempt and possibly smallest quantity of the spring  is to get in the collet hole. Further shortening will not be able to be compensated by the regulator arm position. Then, the angle beginning/end will change ahd thus the isochronism will be changed too. A newbie will for sure get lost the tappered pin. Making new pin is a piece of cake and takes a minute, but a newbie will need to learn how to do it first... Then, the spring is allready distorted and will need reshaping of the internal and outer parts. Of course, if it is possible, return it to the seller.

I got a new microscope today. Amscope SM-4T. I’m going to practice manipulating hairsprings for a bit then will attempt a repair on the Omega. The only other available new parts I can see are in Colombia or Australia. Will risk one of them if I fail. Seller is happy to refund for the broken part.