Trying to gauge the quality of my services because i'm being offered my first paid gigs. How's this reading look for a 7s26 movement?

[watchweasol]

Hi @Birbdad it wouldn’t hurt to get some cards printed these you give to the client with the watch  when done, this gives the client confidence in you from a contact point of view, you are backing your work.   All the best

[Birbdad]

@watchweasol @Neverenoughwatches So here's something i need to know. When i do my final timing i chart losses or gains on my wrist for a week and then adjust from there. Since i can't wear this guys watch for a week, i'm about to case it and send it back. Is there any formula for shooting for maybe 2 seconds fast roughly on the wrist based on the timing there? I'm sorta thinking if i reduce the rate by about three seconds a day in a dial position it might get me pretty close to there. 

[JohnR725]

  On 2/19/2024 at 8:02 PM, Birbdad said:

maybe 2 seconds fast roughly on the wrist based on the timing there? I'm sorta thinking if i reduce the rate by about three seconds a day in a dial position it might get me pretty close to there. 

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timing specifications and range of specifications are interesting. I know a shop that services Rolex watches Rolex we give you this timing range that's acceptable might not be acceptable to the customer but this is the range. But for the shop they never return a watch that's running slow or even zero seconds. One of the people was doing a lecture once in the watch was absolute perfect and zero seconds and he said that would go back to the watchmaker because it had to be running slightly fast.

that if you look at things like Omega timing specifications they will give you ranges between this and this but they will give you a target range. So basically the target range appears to be centered between the minimum and maximum.

 

 

[Birbdad]

  On 2/19/2024 at 9:12 PM, JohnR725 said:

timing specifications and range of specifications are interesting. I know a shop that services Rolex watches Rolex we give you this timing range that's acceptable might not be acceptable to the customer but this is the range. But for the shop they never return a watch that's running slow or even zero seconds. One of the people was doing a lecture once in the watch was absolute perfect and zero seconds and he said that would go back to the watchmaker because it had to be running slightly fast.

that if you look at things like Omega timing specifications they will give you ranges between this and this but they will give you a target range. So basically the target range appears to be centered between the minimum and maximum.

 

 

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Ok, i should probably slow it down as my delta range is on the gain side and i'd like to keep it's overall performance SLIGHTLY on the gain side. 

I just wondered if there was some formula where like you wanted to target a couple positions specifically as a watch spends most of it's time in that position. LIke crown right....i wonder if my watch is even in crown right position for five seconds a day haha. Maybe when i scratch the back of my neck. I imagine for most people watches spend most of their time in dial up, crown left and and crown down which would be typing, sitting, and standing at rest. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 2/19/2024 at 8:02 PM, Birbdad said:

@watchweasol @Neverenoughwatches So here's something i need to know. When i do my final timing i chart losses or gains on my wrist for a week and then adjust from there. Since i can't wear this guys watch for a week, i'm about to case it and send it back. Is there any formula for shooting for maybe 2 seconds fast roughly on the wrist based on the timing there? I'm sorta thinking if i reduce the rate by about three seconds a day in a dial position it might get me pretty close to there. 

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I guess if the watch is going to be out a little bit then having it slightly fast is better than slightly slow. The guy may wear his watches differently to you anyway, his day may be very different, his activity levels may be different. I think you have to be so careful with what a customer is informed of. If they are told a specific accuracy and run time then thats what they are going to expect.  You might want to let it settle in with you for a few days, worn around your home. Just one of the awkward areas that you have to deal with when you have a paying customer, a pro would have it on a watchwinder for a little while and then re regulate it before it goes back.

[Jon]

@BirbdadBuy yourself an automatic watch winding machine from AliExpress for pennies https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000004784736.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.159.594618024QfCOB It will pay dividends and make timing your watches so much easier.

For any watch, aim to always gain time, and never lose time. Take a reading after 24 hours as the movement may be gaining time when fully wound, but lose a slight amount when sitting on the bedside table for 8 hours. With a Seiko, it should gain about 20 seconds per day. The specs say more. With this type of movement don't try and aim for zero seconds of gain or loss as it's futile. I've just serviced a Citizen 8260A manual watch for a client and it went out the door gaining 25 seconds per day when fully wound. After 24 hours of running it gains about 8 seconds per day, so at the end of the week it should gain about a minute or two. This is more than acceptable for the quality of this type of movement.

In London, I charge £190 for an automatic and £140 for a manual watch with no date plus £20 for a new mainspring which should be fitted as standard. I always expect to see at least 270 to 280 degrees amplitude, maybe more. I think this is a reasonable amount to charge. Some charge more, some less. Always charge what you think you are worth. Never charge less than your value. If a client doesn't want to pay your fees, then they were never meant to be your client. That's just how it goes, so don't bring yourself down to meet the client's expectations of price.

Don't ever question your worth if you know you are good at what you do, only others will question that, and again, they are never going to be your clients or pay what you are worth.

On a side note. The main positions to look at are dial-up, crown left and crown down (as you look at the dial), as these are the main positions your watch will be in. These are unadjusted positions.

Edited February 20, 2024 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 2/19/2024 at 11:36 PM, Jon said:

@BirbdadBuy yourself an automatic watch winding machine from AliExpress for pennies https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000004784736.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.159.594618024QfCOB It will pay dividends and make timing your watches so much easier.

For any watch, aim to always gain time, and never lose time. Take a reading after 24 hours as the movement may be gaining time when fully wound, but lose a slight amount when sitting on the bedside table for 8 hours. With a Seiko, it should gain about 20 seconds per day. The specs say more. With this type of movement don't try and aim for zero seconds of gain or loss as it's futile. I've just serviced a Citizen 8260A manual watch for a client and it went out the door gaining 25 seconds per day when fully wound. After 24 hours of running it gains about 8 seconds per day, so at the end of the week it should gain about a minute or two. This is more than acceptable for the quality of this type of movement.

In London, I charge £140 for an automatic watch with no date plus £20 for a new mainspring which should be fitted as standard. I always expect to see at least 270 to 280 degrees amplitude, maybe more. I think this is a reasonable amount to charge. Some charge more, some less. Always charge what you think you are worth. Never charge less than your value. If a client doesn't want to pay your fees, then they were never meant to be your client. That's just how it goes, so don't bring yourself down to meet the client's expectations of price.

Don't ever question your worth if you know you are good at what you do, only others will question that, and again, they are never going to be your clients or pay what you are worth.

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That's the most sense I've heard in a long time. In 35 years of business not once did i let a customer knock me down on my quotations. I'd rather risk losing a job than lose my self respect .

[Jon]

  On 2/19/2024 at 11:50 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

That's the most sense I've heard in a long time. In 35 years of business not once did i let a customer knock me down on my quotations. I'd rather risk losing a job than lose my self respect .

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You know it! 

[Birbdad]

  On 2/19/2024 at 11:36 PM, Jon said:

@BirbdadBuy yourself an automatic watch winding machine from AliExpress for pennies https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000004784736.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.159.594618024QfCOB It will pay dividends and make timing your watches so much easier.

For any watch, aim to always gain time, and never lose time. Take a reading after 24 hours as the movement may be gaining time when fully wound, but lose a slight amount when sitting on the bedside table for 8 hours. With a Seiko, it should gain about 20 seconds per day. The specs say more. With this type of movement don't try and aim for zero seconds of gain or loss as it's futile. I've just serviced a Citizen 8260A manual watch for a client and it went out the door gaining 25 seconds per day when fully wound. After 24 hours of running it gains about 8 seconds per day, so at the end of the week it should gain about a minute or two. This is more than acceptable for the quality of this type of movement.

In London, I charge £140 for an automatic watch with no date plus £20 for a new mainspring which should be fitted as standard. I always expect to see at least 270 to 280 degrees amplitude, maybe more. I think this is a reasonable amount to charge. Some charge more, some less. Always charge what you think you are worth. Never charge less than your value. If a client doesn't want to pay your fees, then they were never meant to be your client. That's just how it goes, so don't bring yourself down to meet the client's expectations of price.

Don't ever question your worth if you know you are good at what you do, only others will question that, and again, they are never going to be your clients or pay what you are worth.

On a side note. The main positions to look at are dial-up, crown left and crown down (as you look at the dial), as these are the main positions your watch will be in. These are unadjusted positions.

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So i'm going on the timegrapher. This service and yeah trying to get it to be a little fast but not too fast. On the wrist when i get the delta in this range i get it pretty dang close to zero for my personal habits as i can spend a week wearing it and dialing it in and charting the average deviation. 

This is the first time i've timed it for another person. I'd wager where i end up with right now he'll be running a few seconds a day fast on his wrist. Whatever he gets it'll be better than factory. I'm amazed at how accurate these movements can be if you just get the terminal curve perfect and really tighten up those regulator pins till they're almost touching the spring but not quite and the spring is perfectly centered. 

Also i charged 180 for now. He said 200 was the highest he wanted to go on labor alone. Apparently in the us the standard rate for a professional is about 300 to service a 3 hand day/date watch. I'm fine with 180 for this even though my hourly wasn't great. I can definitely be faster in the future if change a few procedural things I thinks.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 2/20/2024 at 4:28 AM, Birbdad said:

So i'm going on the timegrapher. This service and yeah trying to get it to be a little fast but not too fast. On the wrist when i get the delta in this range i get it pretty dang close to zero for my personal habits as i can spend a week wearing it and dialing it in and charting the average deviation. 

This is the first time i've timed it for another person. I'd wager where i end up with right now he'll be running a few seconds a day fast on his wrist. Whatever he gets it'll be better than factory. I'm amazed at how accurate these movements can be if you just get the terminal curve perfect and really tighten up those regulator pins till they're almost touching the spring but not quite and the spring is perfectly centered. 

Also i charged 180 for now. He said 200 was the highest he wanted to go on labor alone. Apparently in the us the standard rate for a professional is about 300 to service a 3 hand day/date watch. I'm fine with 180 for this even though my hourly wasn't great. I can definitely be faster in the future if change a few procedural things I thinks.

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Would a different cleaning operation help to speed things up ?

[JohnR725]

  On 2/20/2024 at 4:28 AM, Birbdad said:

his is the first time i've timed it for another person. I'd wager where i end up with right now he'll be running a few seconds a day fast on his wrist. Whatever he gets it'll be better than factory. I'm amazed at how accurate these movements can be if you just get the terminal curve perfect and really tighten up those regulator pins till they're almost touching the spring but not quite and the spring is perfectly centered.

Expand  

yesterday when is it work is thinking about this discussion. Sitting next the timing machine was a 7S 36 which is basically equivalent to the 7S 26 waiting to be regulated. It's a service we offer regulate your existing watch so that hasn't been serviced hasn't been anything done other than playing with the hairspring. He did comment a gets a huge improvement with amplitude once you centered the hairspring although I think this one might it taken a fall or something. I didn't ask a lot of questions I just wanted the timing results I printed them out. So yes basically if the factory took more time they can get their watch keeping better time but just think what a few extra seconds in the production of trillions of watches we do for factory output.

  On 2/20/2024 at 4:28 AM, Birbdad said:

Also i charged 180 for now. He said 200 was the highest he wanted to go on labor alone. Apparently in the us the standard rate for a professional is about 300 to service a 3 hand day/date watch. I'm fine with 180 for this even though my hourly wasn't great. I can definitely be faster in the future if change a few procedural things I thinks.

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then that $300 is that retail or wholesale? It used to be that wholesale was 50% of the retail price. but I remember an example of a jewelry store that tripled the wholesale price because they could and way back then the service costs were really really cheap. Before watchmakers grasp they had value and bumped up their prices. where I work now wholesale is a percentage of the retail price and no I do not do anything with pricing I don't worry about pricing typically I would have to actually ask what the repair costs are.

thinking about servicing I found an interesting websites. Let's see what they do when they get your watch

then they do have a price calculator and let's see what they would charge for this watch?

you

yes unfortunately the world of watch repair there's a lot a difference in pricing. Retail versus wholesale whether it's some individual doing the work out of their house with zero comprehension of how much they should be charging. Or even apparently the Seiko service center where their pricing seems quite nice.

https://www.seikoserviceusa.com/pages/serviceprice/

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2024 by JohnR725

[Birbdad]

  On 2/20/2024 at 9:33 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Would a different cleaning operation help to speed things up ?

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I think the main thing slowing me down is not having a proper work bench which forces me to work under a 10x scope for much of my work as hunching over with a loupe absolutely kills my back and neck. I sit on the floor to do my disassembly under the loupe and it's amazing how fast it goes compared to my assembly and oiling which i do under the scope. Getting a proper working area would probably do wonders for speed and then i would only do a few oiling operations and my hairspring adjustments under the loupe.

  On 2/20/2024 at 5:20 PM, JohnR725 said:

yesterday when is it work is thinking about this discussion. Sitting next the timing machine was a 7S 36 which is basically equivalent to the 7S 26 waiting to be regulated. It's a service we offer regulate your existing watch so that hasn't been serviced hasn't been anything done other than playing with the hairspring. He did comment a gets a huge improvement with amplitude once you centered the hairspring although I think this one might it taken a fall or something. I didn't ask a lot of questions I just wanted the timing results I printed them out. So yes basically if the factory took more time they can get their watch keeping better time but just think what a few extra seconds in the production of trillions of watches we do for factory output.

then that $300 is that retail or wholesale? It used to be that wholesale was 50% of the retail price. but I remember an example of a jewelry store that tripled the wholesale price because they could and way back then the service costs were really really cheap. Before watchmakers grasp they had value and bumped up their prices. where I work now wholesale is a percentage of the retail price and no I do not do anything with pricing I don't worry about pricing typically I would have to actually ask what the repair costs are.

thinking about servicing I found an interesting websites. Let's see what they do when they get your watch

then they do have a price calculator and let's see what they would charge for this watch?

you

yes unfortunately the world of watch repair there's a lot a difference in pricing. Retail versus wholesale whether it's some individual doing the work out of their house with zero comprehension of how much they should be charging. Or even apparently the Seiko service center where their pricing seems quite nice.

https://www.seikoserviceusa.com/pages/serviceprice/

 

 

 

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So I learned something about seikos service center when i was talking to some other pros from a group i'm in, some of them know some seiko watchmakers or seiko employees. that "service" for 118 dollars isn't actually a service. What they'll do is take out your movement, throw it in the trash and put in a new movement pre lubricated from the factory which is pretty hit or miss then see that it's in in spec (reminder spec for this movement is like -45 to + 35 or something, real broad.). This is actually what most service centers do. The parent company makes movements for so cheap there's really just no point in actually taking the time to do a full service repair on it. I think this is different from really high end makers however.

One of the things i offer as service that they don't which is why i get deltas  often 2/3rds to 2/5ths lower than factory  is i do a full adjustment of hte hairspring, make sure it tracks the regulator arm (It NEVER does on the factory with their low cost movements.), i recenter the hairspring and get the regulator pins real close and that brings the deltas down from a factory of like 15 to 30 to as low as 6 which is the lowest delta i've gotten on one of these. They keep PHENOMENAL time for the cost once you do this.

But this guy said he would prefer to keep the movement intact as like me he considers that to be as much the watch as the case and hands and he has a sentimental attachment to the watch. If he had opted for a simple movement swap i'd probably have been able to do it for like 90 bucks and upgraded him to an nh36 he could hand wind.