Trying to gauge the quality of my services because i'm being offered my first paid gigs. How's this reading look for a 7s26 movement?

[Neverenoughwatches]

32 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I can see both sides of the argument (sort of) in the debate about lubricating the pallet fork pivot jewels, if we need to do it for the other wheels in the power train to increase amplitude and reduce pivot wear, then why not for the pallet fork also as it is moving the fastest out of all the wheels. On the other hand, I believe the reason for not oiling it is to reduce the likelihood of the oil finding its way to the balance spring - please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the reason, then how do we explain oiling the cap jewels on the balance, they are closer to the balance spring so more likelihood of the oil finding its way to the balance spring from there, and thūere are 2 of them so twice the risk?

I would be genuinely interested in the real reason with some logical reasoning, hopefully it's not just a 'we just do it that way because we always did it that way'

My guess its lack of torque waggy.

[Waggy]

27 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

lack of torque

You mean that the additional viscosity caused by the lubrication would increase the torque required to operate the pallet fork? I feel a scientific experiment coming on 

Edited January 25 by Waggy

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, Waggy said:

You mean that the additional viscosity caused by the lubrication would increase the torque required to operate the pallet fork? I feel a scientific experiment coming on 

Each wheel in the train has less torque than the previous.  You notice when under power if you hold each wheel back the escape wheel has the least pull. The lever has less, plus the escapement takes a big chunk of energy on the draw. Add to that some waning amplitude and whats left is some pretty pathetic torque. I would assume any oiling to the lever pivots is more robbing energy than lubricating. If it were to be lubricated you would expect it needed to be so thin that it  runs everywhere and have to rely on a retaining application to keep it in place.

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Each wheel in the train has less torque than the previous.  You notice when under power if you hold each wheel back the escape wheel has the least pull. The lever has less, plus the escapement takes a big chunk of energy on the draw. Add to that some waning amplitude and whats left is some pretty pathetic torque. I would assume any oiling to the lever pivots is more robbing energy than lubricating. If it were to be lubricated you would expect it needed to be so thin that it  runs everywhere and have to rely on a retaining application to keep it in place.

Maybe the torque is so low that the only lubrication it needs is air friction ?

[Waggy]

Good point, maybe it would be work taking an old movement and measuring amplitude on a dry escape pivot, then adding oil and see if it made things better or worse?

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, Waggy said:

You mean that the additional viscosity caused by the lubrication would increase the torque required to operate the pallet fork? I feel a scientific experiment coming on 

What does lubrication do ? It reduces friction by creating a bearing surface. Lubrication could be looked at as adding a series of molecular bearings. So that would reduce wear compared to 2 hard surfaces rubbing together. Because the lever has so little torque that oil bearing surface is not needed because there is hardly any friction between the pivots and the jewels.

5 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Good point, maybe it would be work taking an old movement and measuring amplitude on a dry escape pivot, then adding oil and see if it made things better or worse?

I imagine that amplitude might even drop by lubricating a small escape wheel. There is a limit where different oils become too viscous for an application. Thats why as we come down the train towards the lever oil application gets thinner and thinner. At some point ( the lever ) the oil has become either so thin its difficult to keep in place or its viscosity needed to stay in place has been outweighed by the fact that its now causing more friction than the torque can handle. 

36 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Good point, maybe it would be work taking an old movement and measuring amplitude on a dry escape pivot, then adding oil and see if it made things better or worse?

I would say that depends on the size of the wheel, I'm sure I've heard of lever pivots being oiled in big pocket watches, John and the clock guys could best answer that. I also think sideshake could be a factor.  So would putting a thicker oil on something with too much sideshake help a situation as long as it stays put ? Normally we look for around 10 microns of sideshake for a pivot, the lubrication then takes some of that up, a thicker lubrication for better or for worse would take up a bigger portion of that space.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

if we need to do it for the other wheels in the power train to increase amplitude and reduce pivot wear

why would you think lubricating the wheels of the watch would increase amplitude?

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

then why not for the pallet fork also as it is moving the fastest out of all the wheels.

lubrication has all sorts of interesting properties some of them good some of them bad. we will also note that I'm not a science major so I'm not use proper technical terms necessarily. Simplistically lubrication can have a dampening effect. So if you have something like a pallet fork it has to move really really fast and not necessarily in a circle just a small angle what would happen if you dampened that? The Swiss consider it a component that's never going to wear out because it does not revolve around in circles. The loading on the pivot is interesting and it does have to move superfast. So if you put lubrication on your pivot the dampening effect will cause a loss of amplitude. This is why the Swiss recommend never ever doing it.

then we have Seiko who doesn't publish amplitudes except in the 4006 document and basically it suggests as long as the watch has the balance moving that's good enough for them in other words amplitude can suck and that's great. In the later documents they do have some concern about timekeeping but no mention of amplitude is ever mentioned ever again. Then there lubricating the pivots which upsets anyone that's a Swiss trained watchmaker because that goes against everything you ever taught and they are Seiko is doing it. Maybe they're just doing it to annoy the watchmakers?

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

You mean that the additional viscosity caused by the lubrication would increase the torque required to operate the pallet fork? I feel a scientific experiment coming on

it depends upon the viscosity of the oil and especially the days of organic oils that would get sticky with time then non-synthetic oils would be even bigger problem which is why they like nice clean pivots.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Each wheel in the train has less torque than the previous.  You notice when under power if you hold each wheel back the escape wheel has the least pull. The lever has less, plus the escapement takes a big chunk of energy on the draw. Add to that some waning amplitude and whats left is some pretty pathetic torque. I would assume any oiling to the lever pivots is more robbing energy than lubricating. If it were to be lubricated you would expect it needed to be so thin that it  runs everywhere and have to rely on a retaining application to keep it in place.

if we skip over the pallet fork aspect of this isn't this an odd statement?

a watch is a rather interesting mechanical item. typically a mechanical devices were trying to reduce the speed of something and increase the torque to run our machinery. But I'll watch is trying to speed up the gear train and they're not really concerned about torque at all certain degree they want speed. Then on this gear train that you're trying to speed up you going to put lubrication that has a dampening effect. Now long term not lubricating things especially metal on metal things will have dire consequences. But I'm not looking at long-term things I'm looking at the amusements of horological lubrication and it doesn't always do what you think it does.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

would say that depends on the size of the wheel, I'm sure I've heard of lever pivots being oiled in big pocket watches

I never oil the pivots of anything bigger small. But clock people may lubricate stuff especially of its metal on metal bearings. I've even heard suggestions that they will oil the roller jewel which often times is a brass pin as if they don't the metal on metal friction is too great.

 

[Waggy]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

why would you think lubricating the wheels of the watch would increase amplitude?

It's an interesting point, I think I 'walked this back' a little on a later post, for sure oil is more viscous than air so the pivot would have more drag(?) in an oiled jewel than a dry one and amplitude would be better, at least in the short term, that is assuming there were no other factors at play etc. However, I believe that the oil is there in other jewels to preserve the part by reducing wear to the pivot (in this case), we can see pivots in the train of wheels that have been mushroomed from running in dry jewels. Damaged pivots would eventually start to degrade amplitude and ultimately stop the watch all together. So I guess there is a temporal aspect to oiling, in the short term it reduces amplitude compared to a dry pivot, but as time goes on it becomes increasingly beneficial by preserving parts leading to a better amplitude than if the part had been allowed to wear in a dry jewel.

Just to argue against myself there is another factor at play, and that is the degradation of the oils, ie after time they degrade and attract dirt and debris forming a gel/paste which can erode the pivots accelerating damage negatively impacting amplitude. pulling all this together we could summarise:

• Short term: lubrication negatively impacts amplitude (viscosity effect)
• Mid term: lubrication preserves amplitude (wear prevention)
• Long term: degraded lubrication negatively impacts amplitude (accelerates wear)

So taking from the above, who had it right with regards to oiling the pallet fork pivot jewels, the Swiss or Japanese? I guess it all depends on your philosophy and what you are prioritising, if its amplitude at the risk of accelerated wear then the Swiss, if it's wear avoidance at the cost of amplitude then the Japanese? I guess the answer is self evident when looking at the pivots on dry pallet forks, I rarely see wear damage on them (or is this just me?), so perhaps lubricating them to prevent wear is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and would simply reduce amplitude for no practical gain?

[Neverenoughwatches]

45 minutes ago, Waggy said:

rarely see wear damage on them (or is this just me?), so perhaps lubricating them to prevent wear is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and would simply reduce amplitude for no practical gain

With lever pivots its more likely to be watchbreaker damage before worn pivots. The lever ( pallet fork ) is probably the lightest component within the run of the train and escapement and has the least torque so least likely to wear out. Like you say waggy priorities. Manufacturers preferring to maintain enough amplitude to keep the timekeeping. A worn out lever pivot every 10 years is less of a problem than an inaccurate timepiece. Everyone wants to know the correct time throughout the day, one big aspect of a manufacturers reputation. I often compare cars to watches, both mechanical objects that are almost a necessity, a watch maybe more so but convenient transportation we are practically dependant on. So manufacturers wanting to sell their cars and watches are dependent on the two main things that buyers want from them  1. Looks and luxury 2. Reliability.  Economy is in there as well but not entirely applicable to a watch ( ease of service and cost of parts could be a factor i suppose ). Looks and luxury can take care of itself,  you either like how it looks and feels or you dont. Reliability can be dependant on the cost of build but not always, something cheap but well designed can be just as reliable as something expensively made but lacking in its development. But it is Reliability that a maker wants to and has to be able to boast about because its something the consumer really wants but cant really see. With a car you want to get in put your seat belt over your shoulder turn the key and away you go not having to worry about it running poorly or breaking down because that can make you late for something. Just like a watch, you wind it up, put the strap on your wrist and away you go not having to worry about it running poorly or breaking down because that can yada yada . Manufacturers need to know that we know what the actual time is when we look at their watch. Long explanation of a theory as to why we do or don't lubricate pallet fork pivots. I think we've highjacked col's thread enough, sorry fella

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But I'll watch is trying to speed up the gear train and they're not really concerned about torque at all certain degree they want speed.

without that initial torque you wont get speed, too much gearing up and the torque can disappear. Same as leverage, effort and energy diminishes the further away you are from the bearing point.

Edited January 25 by Neverenoughwatches

[Birbdad]

On 1/25/2024 at 12:05 AM, Waggy said:

I can see both sides of the argument (sort of) in the debate about lubricating the pallet fork pivot jewels, if we need to do it for the other wheels in the power train to increase amplitude and reduce pivot wear, then why not for the pallet fork also as it is moving the fastest out of all the wheels. On the other hand, I believe the reason for not oiling it is to reduce the likelihood of the oil finding its way to the balance spring - please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the reason, then how do we explain oiling the cap jewels on the balance, they are closer to the balance spring so more likelihood of the oil finding its way to the balance spring from there, and there are 2 of them so twice the risk?

I would be genuinely interested in the real reason with some logical reasoning, hopefully it's not just a 'we just do it that way because we always did it that way'

I just do it that way because I've been told unanimously by everybody who knows more about this than me to do it that way and i just have little time for experimenting. 

I could do a service, wait a week to get my proper timing, then open the thing up, lubricate the pallet fork, wait a week and do another proper timing. If the result is worse i would then have to open the thing up, clean the pallet fork, clean the pallet fork bridge and clean the bridge on the underside of it, and since that would require a full teardown i would then have to clean and re-oil and re service the entire thing. 

That's just too many hours of my life to invest when i can just do it the "right" way the first time and get the results i want.

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I could do a service, wait a week to get my proper timing, then open the thing up, lubricate the pallet fork, wait a week and do another proper timing. If the result is worse i would then have to open the thing up, clean the pallet fork, clean the pallet fork bridge and clean the bridge on the underside of it, and since that would require a full teardown i would then have to clean and re-oil and re service the entire thing. 

the experiment wasn't meant to be some bizarrely new method of servicing a watch where you're wasting a lot of time.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

the experiment wasn't meant to be some bizarrely new method of servicing a watch where you're wasting a lot of time.

 

Investing time in learning from one off experiments can save a lot time later where we might not be doing something quite right

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the experiment wasn't meant to be some bizarrely new method of servicing a watch where you're wasting a lot of time.

 

I'm sure, but a side effect from it would be i'd have to reservice the watch which would eat up a good bit of time. If you wanna do it i'd certainly be curious to see the results.

Also speaking of paid gigs. It just came in. Didn't expect my first paid gig to be a lovely condition pepsi skx. Just opened it up. Last watchmaker said it needed a new mainspring and then threw it in a drawer for a year and didn't work on it. Hands move manually, balance and rotor spin but gets no juice. It probably just needs a service and a barrel swap.

Edited January 28 by Birbdad

[JohnR725]

45 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

ut a side effect from it would be i'd have to reservice the watch which would eat up a good bit of time. If you wanna do it i'd certainly be curious to see the results.

actually I already did do the experiment. Which is why was pointing out that missing the lubrication from one pivot would really make much different at all.. Then currently I've just finished the HP 1300 on the entire geartrain experiment. Now I need to scour my bench for another 6497 because I want to do two separate watches at the same time and different lubrication's on them just because. Then someday maybe I'll start a discussion on lubrication experiments has this isn't really the discussion for it right now.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I want to do two separate watches at the same time and different lubrication's on them just because. Then someday maybe I'll start a discussion on lubrication experiments has this isn't really the discussion for it right now.

There will be a few of us in on that one John, looking forward to it.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

actually I already did do the experiment. Which is why was pointing out that missing the lubrication from one pivot would really make much different at all.. Then currently I've just finished the HP 1300 on the entire geartrain experiment. Now I need to scour my bench for another 6497 because I want to do two separate watches at the same time and different lubrication's on them just because. Then someday maybe I'll start a discussion on lubrication experiments has this isn't really the discussion for it right now.

 

That would be a great thread. Hope to see it soon!

[Birbdad]

Ok here it is. 7 days on the wrist. 1.4 seconds average deviation.

[Birbdad]

Ok i just finished my first paid gig and here's the results. This is after running for 2 days. First check is one hour from full wind and second is 24 hours running, isochronism achieved. The only thing i find odd is i couldn't quite get the amplitude to over 270, not that it has to be. This watch has run for 15 years without a service and got knocked so hard it stopped working hence why he paid me to repair it. This may have some wear keeping amplitude a bit lower than i normally get. ALso this is the first time using my new oiling method i properly oiled the 3rd wheel with hp1300, I'll be doing investigations on this to see if that thicker oil there lowers the amplitude a bit as this is not what seiko recommends in their service sheets.

I think these are pretty damn good results regardless right? Movement is 7s26c from a seiko skx007

Edited February 19 by Birbdad

[watchweasol]

Hi. They look very good . 1. It’s up and running.  2 it’s keeping good time .  That’s all your client wants, no confusion over technicalities. Good job.    Any heavier lubrication will have an effect on amplitude  but it’s the time keeping that matters. Nice one

[Birbdad]

7 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. They look very good . 1. It’s up and running.  2 it’s keeping good time .  That’s all your client wants, no confusion over technicalities. Good job.    Any heavier lubrication will have an effect on amplitude  but it’s the time keeping that matters. Nice one

This whole thread was trying to guage the quality of my service to see if i was fit to charge money for it haha. Thank you for giving me an answer. 

The lubrication thing is interesting. I'm about to service another 7s26 when my mainsprings arrive from cousins and i will be real curious to see if i again get a bit lower amplitude lubricating in the same fashion.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Ok i just finished my first paid gig and here's the results. This is after running for 2 days. First check is one hour from full wind and second is 24 hours running, isochronism achieved. The only thing i find odd is i couldn't quite get the amplitude to over 270, not that it has to be. This watch has run for 15 years without a service and got knocked so hard it stopped working hence why he paid me to repair it. This may have some wear keeping amplitude a bit lower than i normally get. ALso this is the first time using my new oiling method i properly oiled the 3rd wheel with hp1300, I'll be doing investigations on this to see if that thicker oil there lowers the amplitude a bit as this is not what seiko recommends in their service sheets.

I think these are pretty damn good results regardless right? Movement is 7s26c from a seiko skx007

Looks good Col, you should be pleased with it. 

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Looks good Col, you should be pleased with it. 

Thanks bud. So this is more or less basically what i got the last two services i did before this as far as a really low delta and accuracy. 

Makes me wonder if this is the mechanical limit for accuracy for this movement because before my results were a bit all over the place but still better than factory. Now my results are much much better and pretty dang consistent. I really would be curious what a top tier watchmaker adjusting and servicing one of these would get, if it can have a little more accuracy squeezed out of it in a basic service.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Thanks bud. So this is more or less basically what i got the last two services i did before this as far as a really low delta and accuracy. 

Makes me wonder if this is the mechanical limit for accuracy for this movement because before my results were a bit all over the place but still better than factory. Now my results are much much better and pretty dang consistent. I really would be curious what a top tier watchmaker adjusting and servicing one of these would get, if it can have a little more accuracy squeezed out of it in a basic service.

The more of them you do, the more you'll get a handle on how far they can go. I suppose there will be a few that under perform and a few that will over perform no matter how well you've serviced them . There's always going to be other little things going on due to wear and tear or just production line Friday watches that are out of your control. But every one that you've done up to now has come out great.

[watchweasol]

Hi @Birbdad don’t sell yourself short you are a capable watch repairman no doubt. I would have no hesitation in using your services or recomending them based on what you post. I think your quality will speak for its self. Just be straight up with your clients and tell them as it is no flannel.   

[Birbdad]

8 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi @Birbdad don’t sell yourself short you are a capable watch repairman no doubt. I would have no hesitation in using your services or recomending them based on what you post. I think your quality will speak for its self. Just be straight up with your clients and tell them as it is no flannel.   

Not sure i've earned the title as watchmaker yet but I think on the movements i'm comfortable with i would put my services toe to toe with any watchmaker. 

And i'm very straight up. I would love this to become a little sidegig which could greatly motivate my speed as that's currently my biggest problem servicing watches. I take too damn long at it haha.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. HOping he likes having the most accurate 7s26 he's ever seen (If it's anything like my other two where i got the delta that low this thing should keep within about 2 seconds variation a day on the wrist.) and tells his friends or posts about it on watchuseek. Gonna put in my sig on there that I am willing to service and repair 7006, 7009, 7s26 and nh movements. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

And i'm very straight up. I would love this to become a little sidegig which could greatly motivate my speed as that's currently my biggest problem servicing watches. I take too damn long at it haha.

Quality comes first Col and is earned through time and effort, your working speed takes care of itself naturally.