Starter movements and models

[LuigiMeister2800]

Hi everyone,

I would love to know your opinions on which movements and corresponding watches are suited for beginners. A lot of people recommend starting out on a Seagull ST36, but actually having a real watch to work on is where I would really love to start.

I did a ton of research, scrolled through eBay and Catawiki a gazillion times but analysis paralysis got the best of me. Brought to my knees by the sheer amount of information I now turn my attention to you, hoping I can pry off some knowledge.

What kind of watch was I thinking of?

• Time only
• Preferably 0 - 75 euros
• Manual wound
• Commonly found online

Please share your opinions on this matter!

 

[mikepilk]

I started with pocket watches as the parts are so much bigger. You could just buy one cheap movement and practice taking it apart, putting it back together to get used to handling small parts. It doesn't matter if you trash it.

With wrist watches, If you want a chance of it running well, I always suggest don't buy a manual wind with less than 15 jewels.  There's plenty of suitable cheap watches on ebay <£30, you could even buy a job lot to practice on.  Try to find what the movement is before buying, then you can check the availability of parts should you need them. There's hundreds of makers, but if you go for the bigger manufacturers like ETA, A Schild, FHF etc, parts are usually easy to find (and cheap).

[oldhippy]

That is what I always recommend start with pocket watches but not the fusse type they are so different. The next stage a gents watch with a basic movement, then gents with date, then day and date, you can progress up to a basic auto then the same with date and so on. Next ladies watches in the same way. When you have reached that you go to the high end movements. The last is chronograph/split timers. Reading through you should see how it works. With high end movements make sure you have the correct case opening tools. When all this has been achieved in being able to clean all these types of movements which includes replacing mainsprings, buttons and stems, you can start replacing balance staffs.

Edited January 11, 2024 by oldhippy

[tomh207]

Starting with the ST36 is still a good idea, there are plenty of case, dial and hand options available on eBay/Aliexpress to build your very own custom watch once you have moved on from this movement in your studies.

Tom

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, LuigiMeister2800 said:

Seagull ST36, but actually having a real watch to work on is where I would really love to start.

interesting wording you do know that this is a real watch? The advantage of this is it's basically a very large wristwatch masquerading as a pocket watch. It has all the characteristics of a real watch and it happens to be running. there are several reasons why it's recommended one it's large to through the watch three it's running. This gives you the opportunity to study what a real running the watch looks like. Versus starting with a non-running watch thinking you're going to fix it because watch repairs easy and everybody can fix the first broken watch they get no skills are required yes I'm sure that I've seen that on at least one YouTube video. It's really best to start with a running watch and observe how it looks when it's running look at all the components. Especially look at the hairspring on the balance. Yes this really is an outstanding choice of a watch to work on.

 

 

[LuigiMeister2800]

10 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

That is what always recommend start with pocket watches but not the fusse type they are so different. The next stage a gents watch with a basic movement, then gents with date, then day and date, you can progress up to a basic auto then the same with date and so on. Next ladies watches in the same way. When you have reached that you go to the high end movements. The last is chronograph/split timers. Reading through you should see how it works. With high end movements make sure you have to correct case opening tools. When all this has been achieved in being able to clean all these types of movements which includes replacing mainsprings, buttons and stems, you can start replacing balance staffs.

Thanks for your answer, 

On the subject of pocket watches, could you provide some examples of brands and models suited for starters?

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

interesting wording you do know that this is a real watch? 

 

 

Hi John,

I am aware of the fact that this is a real watch, what I meant was not only a movement but a watch that has been owned and cared for by someone. I also never wanted to claim that I'd get a non running watch running again after watching one youtube video. 

For me personally the fact that someone actually used a wristwatch or pocket watch somewhere in the past, makes it a lot more attractive. That's just the place where I would like to start. I don't mind if I fail a hundred times, I am not looking for the best way to learn the fastest. 

Thanks for your answer!

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, LuigiMeister2800 said:

For me personally the fact that someone actually used a wristwatch or pocket watch somewhere in the past, makes it a lot more attractive. That's just the place where I would like to start. I don't mind if I fail a hundred times, I am not looking for the best way to learn the fastest. 

we end up with interesting problems with one I've quoted above. First good that you accept you're going to fail because everyone fails and watch repair. Also extremely good about how fast you're going to learn because everybody here is still learning. I relate watch repair similar to becoming a doctor doctors are practicing were all practicing. Which I always find amusing seems to conflict with some of the YouTube videos.

Probably better to start with something newer then. You also didn't specify a location on the planet where you live which could influence what we suggest. The problem with American pocket watches most of them were made 100 years or more ago that's 100 years of things that may have occurred to this watch typically at the hands of whoever was servicing it. So the problem for somebody starting off trying to fix a broken pocket watch is that working on vintage has challenges lots and lots of challenges with lots and lots of disappointments. Even those of us that specialize in pocket watches find it frustrating that well there a pain in the ass to fix to be quite honest. Versus if you would find something a much newer probably a wristwatch where parts are readily available your chance of success and having a happy outcome is much greater.

 

 

[LuigiMeister2800]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You also didn't specify a location on the planet where you live which could influence what we suggest.

Vintage has challenges lots and lots of challenges with lots and lots of disappointments.  Versus if you would find something a much newer probably a wristwatch where parts are readily available your chance of success and having a happy outcome is much greater.

 

 

Updated my profile, living in Mechelen, Belgium.

Good insight on the vintage part. What is considered 'much newer' in your opinion?

[tomh207]

If you are looking at wristwatch then where you are https://speedtimerkollektion.com is worth a look. A lot of different watches and parts at not terrible prices with a good reputation too.

 

Tom

[LuigiMeister2800]

13 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

If you are looking at wristwatch then where you are https://speedtimerkollektion.com is worth a look. A lot of different watches and parts at not terrible prices with a good reputation too.

 

Tom

Thanks Tom, hadn't found that one yet! It appears google analytics is not the strong suits of a lot of those shops!

[tomh207]

15 minutes ago, LuigiMeister2800 said:

Thanks Tom, hadn't found that one yet! It appears google analytics is not the strong suits of a lot of those shops!

The watchmaker material houses/parts places seem to hide from us at times

 

Tom

[spectre6000]

Gotta chime in the with obligatory 404 recommendation. It's sort of a game/challenge thread on here where a handful of us try to find cheap (under 4.04 pounds/$5) watches. For some it's about collecting, for some it's about the thrill of the hunt (you'd be surprised at some of the genuinely decent stuff you can find), and for some it's good cheap victims to lay on the altar of education.

Sure, you might get some junk that might be hard to salvage, but if you set your expectations appropriately, that's not a problem. Put them aside, and come back when you have more skill. The thing that's not being mentioned is, you WILL borkulate up some hairsprings real good out of the gate. You can do that on a $35 Chinese movement and parts are difficult to find. You basically just get another whole movement, which isn't too difficult or expensive. A $100 pocket watch, assuming it's not pre-borked... Well, then you spend months trying to track down another with the same movement that isn't also already pre-borked. Or a $2 no-name. It MIGHT be borked up, but you're down a minimal outlay. At a current exchange rate of 20 no-names to the pocket watch, by the time you've broken even, you're no longer borkulating hairsprings and actually regulating out completed wearable watches (assuming your 404s aren't too tacky, and there are plenty of those!). Plus, you've amassed a nice collection of spares. Bonus, it meets your pre-loved watch desire. 

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, LuigiMeister2800 said:

On the subject of pocket watches, could you provide some examples of brands and models suited for starters?

Any thing like this as you can see it has a bridge plate movement, its a Waltham and there are plenty of spare parts, the photo is a high end grade but you can get them with hardly any jewels I think as little as two. 

[LuigiMeister2800]

21 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Gotta chime in the with obligatory 404 recommendation. It's sort of a game/challenge thread on here where a handful of us try to find cheap (under 4.04 pounds/$5) watches. For some it's about collecting, for some it's about the thrill of the hunt (you'd be surprised at some of the genuinely decent stuff you can find), and for some it's good cheap victims to lay on the altar of education.

Also an interesting take on the subject, but I guess for me it would be like finding a needle in a haystack when not really knowing what to look for. I did a quick search on ebay and a LOT came up. From Disney Frozen stuff to RARE vintage Russian watches  

My analysis paralysis seems to be growing by the minute.

[oldhippy]

Russian vintage if you mean from the 60's or 70's leave them alone they are not well made, can be fiddle getting the wheels between plates, threads on the screws are poor. Certainly not recommended by me. There calendar works are a nightmare with an abundance of very fine springs that will not sit in their designated spot and would sooner fly to the moon then stay in the movement.     

[tomh207]

7 minutes ago, LuigiMeister2800 said:

Also an interesting take on the subject, but I guess for me it would be like finding a needle in a haystack when not really knowing what to look for. I did a quick search on ebay and a LOT came up. From Disney Frozen stuff to RARE vintage Russian watches  

My analysis paralysis seems to be growing by the minute.

It can feel like that, and sometimes overwhelming when starting out. I get immediately suspicious when I see the phrase “ rare vintage” anything, tools or watches. I think some folks get the idea that if something is a bit rough around the edges or they don’t know what it is it must be vintage or rare whereas folks with experience know that item was 10 for a penny and isn’t worth the asking price. Just because something is rare for one person doesn’t mean that it’s not a common item for someone else.

it is difficult but you will quickly get a feel for when something just doesn’t gel right even just looking at eBay and not buying anything. One always to be very careful of is any watch for sale from India, often these are referred to as “Mumbai specials “ these tend to have colourful dials and generally are a frankenwatch cobbled together from a junk parts bin. 
 

you can always drop us a picture here if something catches your eye and you will likely get good advice.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

The watchmaker material houses/parts places seem to hide from us at times

it's one of my amusements when I started watch repair in school a very long time ago. I remember looking in the phone book yes we didn't test smart phones back then how sad. In a case a member looking in the phone book and they didn't seem to exist. I remember asking one of the material houses and they basically said if you don't know they exist without they don't really care about you you have to know the wholesale businesses even though some of them were retail they didn't care about you.

Then as we move on to this newfangled electronic Internet age quite a few of the material houses are still operating without fully grasping that. Some of them like cousins switch to 100% Internet and rumor has it there are no physical people there at all at least trying to physically talk to one could be an issue. Others are partially online like a lot of the ones in the US 90% of what they have as far as watch material goes you will have to reach out by telephoning or emailing or some other communication. The used to be really big with fax machines I briefly worked in a material house learning the cut glass crystals and they used to get the phone ringing and then a fax would spit out of the machine.

So yes unfortunately material houses like the hide and they were scattered across the planet so it is always conceivable that you may have physical material somewhere around you that conceivably might do business with you. Otherwise you have to look for them online and yes there hiding they like to hide.

 

[Klassiker]

If it's a complete wristwatch you want to work on, you could do a lot worse than something with a working ST/FHF96 movement in it. There are a lot of them about, as it was a popular budget movement back in the day. That makes them reasonably priced, spares are available, they were made to be serviced so they are relatively easy to work on, and what you learn there will transfer to a lot of other movements. Avoid anything coming out of India though 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Klassiker
Spelling

[LuigiMeister2800]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

you can always drop us a picture here if something catches your eye and you will likely get good advice.

Would this be a good start:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225879500437?hash=item349777a695:g:gIwAAOSwJRNlWzfZ

I was looking for some FHF96 models as proposed by Klassiker.

[tomh207]

I do rather like that watch, I would now ask the seller if they can take the back off so you can see the movement. 
 

then we can confirm what it is.

Tom

[LuigiMeister2800]

3 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I would now ask the seller if they can take the back off so you can see the movement. 

Seems like there's one picture with the back removed, not sure if there is enough detail for you to make out the movement:

[tomh207]

Yup had another look and it indeed looks like a FHF 96 from the engraving under the balance. I like the look of it so if you decide not to go for it let me know

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

How about something like this.  More bridges, easier for a beginner. 

Or this 

[tomh207]

For sure @RichardHarris123

but I like it and didn’t feel like it would be right for me to put him off. BTW could you put the item link in? I just see photos.

 

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

For sure @RichardHarris123

but I like it and didn’t feel like it would be right for me to put him off. BTW could you put the item link in? I just see photos.

 

Tom

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335186939235?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=VYphkhamTOi&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ygnih7yitds&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY