Vostok 2809, pallet stone vs. banking pin

[NigelTufnel]

Hello all, total noob here with a nice microscope and inexpensive movement.  After getting all cocky regulating a couple of Seiko's and breaking at least one balance spring I put a Russian Vostok I bought on Ebay for $125 or something on the timer and the results were nuts.  It's like every minute the timing would change radically. To make a long story short, the watch needed complete cleaning but also the shellac on the pallet fork had disintegrated, leaving a loose jewel. 

I'm at the point right now where I am trying to meet the correct draw depth of the jewels.  Just to make you laugh, I originally had swapped the entry and exit jewels.  Fortunately a close read through Henry Fried's The Watch Repairer's Manual set me straight.  OK, so the entry jewel is spot on.  Max draw is 1/3rd of the width of the pallet jewel.  The problem I have is the exit jewel.  Even fully pushed into the fork it's still too deep into the escape wheel when it's engaged, about half the width of the pallet jewel.  Moving the fork back and forth without the balance wheel inserted it seems to clear. 

PS - I'm using a microscope with a ruler in one of the eye sights, so that's how I'm measuring everything.

I understand I could fix this by adjusting the banking pins but in this watch they are fixed, there's no screw to turn, but they could be bent.  Looking at the pallet fork from a second Vostok 2809 it seems like the pallet stone is the same length.  

My question for you fine folk is, is my next step the banking pin adjustment, or in the case of this movement do I leave it well enough alone? 

From Fried's book, I guess I could also shorten the pallet jewel.... but that's yet another rabbit hole I'm not ready for.

Thank you!

 

Erik

Edited December 28, 2023 by NigelTufnel
Clarifications, misspellings

[Jon]

26 minutes ago, NigelTufnel said:

Hello all, total noob here with a nice microscope and inexpensive movement.  After getting all cocky regulating a couple of Seiko's and breaking at least one balance spring I put a Russian Vostok I bought on Ebay for $125 or something on the timer and the results were nuts.  It's like every minute the timing would change radically. To make a long story short, the watch needed complete cleaning but also the shellac on the pallet fork had disintegrated, leaving a loose jewel. 

I'm at the point right now where I am trying to meet the correct draw depth of the jewels.  Just to make you laugh, I originally had swapped the entry and exit jewels.  Fortunately a close read through Henry Fried's The Watch Repairer's Manual set me straight.  OK, so the entry jewel is spot on.  Max draw is 1/3rd of the width of the pallet jewel.  The problem I have is the exit jewel.  Even fully pushed into the fork it's still too deep into the escape wheel when it's engaged, about half the width of the pallet jewel.  Moving the fork back and forth without the balance wheel inserted it seems to clear. 

PS - I'm using a microscope with a ruler in one of the eye sights, so that's how I'm measuring everything.

I understand I could fix this by adjusting the banking pins but in this watch they are fixed, there's no screw to turn, but they could be bent.  Looking at the pallet fork from a second Vostok 2809 it seems like the pallet stone is the same length.  

My question for you fine folk is, is my next step the banking pin adjustment, or in the case of this movement do I leave it well enough alone? 

From Fried's book, I guess I could also shorten the pallet jewel.... but that's yet another rabbit hole I'm not ready for.

Thank you!

 

Erik

Have a look at this post. If you bring the banking pin in, then you will reduce the total lock of the pallet stone, but, you will also decrease the guard pin clearance with the safety roller and horn clearance with the impulse jewel, as well as the impulse jewel might scuff the horn as it enters the notch.

The WOSTEP handout in the post 'Pallet lock question' covers pretty much everything you need to know.

The better choice would be to reduce the length of the pallet stone, or even bend the pallet so the lock is less, but that would be the last choice and it would also change the angle of draw and might affect the power of the escape wheel pushing on the impulse face of the pallet stone. A very sharp chisel on the end of the pallet stone should do it.

Can you post some pics of the pallet lock with the escape wheel?

 

[NigelTufnel]

Thanks @Jon I apologize that my PC microscope is not very good

[Jon]

14 minutes ago, NigelTufnel said:

Thanks @Jon I apologize that my PC microscope is not very good

That's not too bad, as far as a deep lock. Is there much play in the side shake of the escape wheel and/or the pallet, as that might be affecting the lock?

Before you make any decision to adjust the pallet stone, banking pins, or anything else, have you serviced the watch and noted the amplitude after 48 hours of running? That is what I would do first. If it is too deep a lock, you will probably see a big drop in amplitude in the vertical position where the escape wheel and pallet are directly vertical with each other. Let's say you have 280 degrees in horizontal positions if you see more than a 30 to 40 degrees drop in vertical then I would think about addressing the lock issue. Take into account this is a Russian watch, so the level of tolerances isn't the same as a Swiss watch, although you can get them to that level with enough work and love.

Also, don't skimp on replacing the mainspring, as you want as much in your favour as possible. A lot of the time people are scratching their heads as to why the amplitude isn't good enough and think the lock is affecting this when in fact it is a bad amplitude because they are using an old mainspring and the amplitude would never be high enough. For the sake of a tenner, change the spring. Even if the watch isn't worth that much, it will show you what a new spring can do and you aren't wondering if it is that that is the issue, as you have taken that factor off the board, so to speak. A lot of the time a new spring resolves the problem, but you will never know unless you replace it

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jon

[NigelTufnel]

I went ahead and assembled as-is, believe it or not this is a thousand times better than the watch I started with.  I have not oiled the pallet stones or finished cleaning it up.

 

So, dial down loses about 55 s/d, but crown up / right gains 120 s/d

Sorry should have added the amplitude.

Dial down:  -53 s/d, 160 degrees

Crown up: +150 s/d, 134

Crown right: +120 s/d, 130 degrees

I'm more than happy to replace a mainspring.  The issue isn't the money, it's finding the right part. 

Hi @Jon

Sorry I'm not replying in a very organized fashion, I appreciate your patience.  I've recently disassembled, cleaned and re-lubricated the entire movement.  The things that remain is the pallet stones, which are bone dry.  Was waiting to finish deciding about the pallet jewel adjustments.  I have watched for side-shake and end shake before and didn't find much, but I'll look again. 

@Jon

Thank you for the advice about it being a low tolerance watch. I'm definitely not looking for an award winner here, but every bit I learn to improve on this watch will save me grief and tears when I work on nicer movement.

There's also a great deal to be learned here by seeing what happens when I do something wrong, and then fixing it.

[NigelTufnel]

I did manage to push in the stone just enough, but after replacing the balance wheel I noticed that the banking pin for the exit stone is pretty bent.  I wonder if I didn't just compensate for the wrong problem?

[nickelsilver]

9 hours ago, NigelTufnel said:

I did manage to push in the stone just enough, but after replacing the balance wheel I noticed that the banking pin for the exit stone is pretty bent.  I wonder if I didn't just compensate for the wrong problem?

When moving stones or bankings, there's an order of checks to be done before moving anything. Copied this from another post:

 

All checks done with balance in, some power on train

• rotate balance slowly and observe drop lock, it should be minimal and equal on both sides
• at the moment of drop, manipulate the fork to check for freedom, this is "corner clearance". There should be freedom, and the escapement shouldn't unlock
• move the balance further a few degrees, check the fork freedom again, this is horn clearance to roller jewel face, should be small enough the escapement doesn't unlock
• continue moving the balance, now you will be checking guard pin clearance. Should be smaller than the horn clearance, and if so it will also be safe

 

The above checks are checking the function of the pallet jewels relative to the roller jewel and safety roller. Observe how much lock is left with the fork horn against roller jewel- this is an indicator of how much adjustment you have as far as moving the stones in. The lock must remain safe with horn in contact with the roller jewel. All checks done on both stones of course, and in theory over the course of a whole escape wheel revolution. This will get the stones in more or less their ideal position- and disregards the bankings completely.

 

Next,

•  moving balance slowly, at the moment of drop lock, observe the travel of the fork to its banking (looking at the escape tooth/pallet stone, not the banking). This is the "run to the banking". It is essential, but can be very small, bearing in mind that there are sideshakes that can eat up some of the clearance between fork and roller table in vertical positions.  Run to the banking plus drop lock = total lock.

 

So to boil it down as simply as possible for practical use, you can check the fork horn clearance, observe the lock remaining, and that amount "minus a little" is about the max you can move the stone in. ***

 

If the total lock is large, and there is a lot of run to the banking, you can  close the banking. Easier said than done on many movements, as this might entail forging the banking with a punch in numerous cases.

 

***One very important thing to keep in mind with drop lock: moving one stone affects the drop lock for both itself and the other stone. If you move the entry stone into the fork, you reduce drop lock on the entry stone, but the escape tooth will also be released sooner on that stone, reducing the drop lock on the exit stone as well. And vice versa. After moving a stone, you must recheck for safe drop lock and safe fork horn clearance.

 

• Moving a stone affects drop lock similarly on both stones, and total lock on that stone.
• Moving a banking affects total lock for that stone, and run to the banking for that stone. No effect on the other stone.

 

[Jon]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

When moving stones or bankings, there's an order of checks to be done before moving anything. Copied this from another post:

 

All checks done with balance in, some power on train

• rotate balance slowly and observe drop lock, it should be minimal and equal on both sides
• at the moment of drop, manipulate the fork to check for freedom, this is "corner clearance". There should be freedom, and the escapement shouldn't unlock
• move the balance further a few degrees, check the fork freedom again, this is horn clearance to roller jewel face, should be small enough the escapement doesn't unlock
• continue moving the balance, now you will be checking guard pin clearance. Should be smaller than the horn clearance, and if so it will also be safe

 

The above checks are checking the function of the pallet jewels relative to the roller jewel and safety roller. Observe how much lock is left with the fork horn against roller jewel- this is an indicator of how much adjustment you have as far as moving the stones in. The lock must remain safe with horn in contact with the roller jewel. All checks done on both stones of course, and in theory over the course of a whole escape wheel revolution. This will get the stones in more or less their ideal position- and disregards the bankings completely.

 

Next,

•  moving balance slowly, at the moment of drop lock, observe the travel of the fork to its banking (looking at the escape tooth/pallet stone, not the banking). This is the "run to the banking". It is essential, but can be very small, bearing in mind that there are sideshakes that can eat up some of the clearance between fork and roller table in vertical positions.  Run to the banking plus drop lock = total lock.

 

So to boil it down as simply as possible for practical use, you can check the fork horn clearance, observe the lock remaining, and that amount "minus a little" is about the max you can move the stone in. ***

 

If the total lock is large, and there is a lot of run to the banking, you can  close the banking. Easier said than done on many movements, as this might entail forging the banking with a punch in numerous cases.

 

***One very important thing to keep in mind with drop lock: moving one stone affects the drop lock for both itself and the other stone. If you move the entry stone into the fork, you reduce drop lock on the entry stone, but the escape tooth will also be released sooner on that stone, reducing the drop lock on the exit stone as well. And vice versa. After moving a stone, you must recheck for safe drop lock and safe fork horn clearance.

 

• Moving a stone affects drop lock similarly on both stones, and total lock on that stone.
• Moving a banking affects total lock for that stone, and run to the banking for that stone. No effect on the other stone.

 

Well explained @nickelsilver

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf

This hand-out that I talked about earlier in another thread shows what has just been explained, but it also gives a pictorial view that sometimes is easier to understand. If the stone gets moved into the pallet without making these checks the stone might unlock before the guard pin or horn stop that from happening when the movement receives a shock. If you rob Peter, you gotta pay Paul!

[nickelsilver]

Ha I think I got the same handout when Simonin taught us back around '98! Of course it's long lost, great to get it again.

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Ha I think I got the same handout when Simonin taught us back around '98! Of course it's long lost, great to get it again.

They hand out by its title indicates multiple of things. I actually found it on the North Seattle community college website where it no longer seems to reside? Which is why a put that in the title of it it's a mixture of things obviously later wostep. Then some of this came from a lecture that Simonin gave when he was at the AWCI convention in Seattle. For which you look carefully and no I'm not can tell you where I am in the picture I'm lurking in the image somewhere. Plus the lectures been preserved unfortunately AWCI gets an F for understanding how to record conventions. I was watching the another lecture somebody gave on YouTube and I was impressed they wore a wireless headphone with noise canceling microphone which would've been so much nicer than having him hold the wireless microphone. But still it's a really interesting lecture and the title is very misleading as to what the lectures about well worth the watch. In fact you can see from the image below isn't that an image out of the PDF?

 

[B52]

To be honest, the Vostok rubbish is really bad choice for learning watchmaking. You are not able recognize what is "normal" fault or what is manufacturing mistake when your are new in watchmaking. Recently I had quite new Vostok watches on my bench with clear visible production faults. To be honest I refuse repair any russian watches since then.

In my country we have two jokes about russian watches...

1. Breznev (former russian president) said the russian watches are the best on the World ...because they are the quickest of all!

2. Ivan (common russian name) started to manufacture Vostok watches and for very first time at the end is not AK47 as usually.

 

...ok some advices from me

as you wrote:

>>So, dial down loses about 55 s/d, but crown up / right gains 120 s/d

The balance have problem or your movement is magnetized. The difference between DU and DD should be max 10s but for Vostok 20s is ok.

All other position shows the balance wheel is not poised. This is higher level of watchmaking. Leave it for now.

The picture from your timegrapher shows the movement is not clear, is over lubricated, some jewels crack and many more possible issues rather then bad mainspring.

Let check out all lessons of watchmaking  at YT from Chronoglide Watchmakers. Especially the lesson about "sectioning". That would be a game changer for you. Another great source of information is Watch Repair Tutorials at the same place.

Good luck, Sir!