Cylinder movement identification

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey watch peeps, anyone up for helping me identify this maker.

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hey watch peeps, anyone up for helping me identify this maker.

I have  it lol, but I'll leave it open for guesses

What am i up against replacing the tampons in the staff ? It dont look easy. 

[RichardHarris123]

Langendorf. I have some complete cylinders, long shot but maybe something if use.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What am i up against replacing the tampons in the staff ? It dont look easy. 

 

Nothing frightfull, just the proper punch and anvil needed. Do You have it? Do You need explainations? Making new tampons is not a problem too. The down side one is OK, but it has sunk a little. Must be pushed out  till the plains of the tampon and cylinder coincide. The  pivot will strighten with the tool in the other topic.

Edited December 24, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Nothing frightfull, just the proper punch and anvil needed. Do You have it? Do You need explainations? Making new tampons is not a problem too. The down side one is OK, but it has sunk a little. Must be pushed out  till the plains of the tampon and cylinder coincide. The  pivot will strighten with the tool in the other topic.

Thanks Nev, any guidance would be helpful,  yes i have a punch that pushes the tampons out, is it done with the staff fitted to the balance wheel ?

[watchweasol]

Hi NEW. YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED A SPLIT STAKE TO ALLOW YOUTO PUSH OUT THE TAMPON USING AN OFF SET PUNCH.

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi NEW. YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED A SPLIT STAKE TO ALLOW YOUTO PUSH OUT THE TAMPON USING AN OFF SET PUNCH.

I only have a thin offset punch that doesn't fit into a staking frame, so I'll be doing this freehand. I have aquired 50 or so 100 year old movements some a little younger that are uncased but with dials. Going through them one at a time, mostly for practice but also for spares as there are some good makers among them. This came out of the bag first and I just want to see what I'm capable of with it.

[RichardHarris123]

If you post the dimensions, I may have one to fit.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

If you post the dimensions, I may have one to fit.

 

Thanks Rich, do you mean the stake or the tampon ?

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Rich, do you mean the stake or the tampon ?

Or the cylinder ?

[RichardHarris123]

If you post the dimensions, I may have one to fit. The cylinder with tampons attached. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If you post the dimensions, I may have one to fit. The cylinder with tampons attached. 

 

I appreciate that Rich, thats really kind of you matey, I'll see what i can measure with it fitted on the balance  wheel. This is new to me, I'm not sure if the staff can be removed and replaced without damage to it, doesn't look to be riveted in place and these cylinders look weak with their hollow design. I'd still like to try replacing the tampons, if you dont challenge yourself then you dont grow, but a replacement would be great as a backup thank you .

[RichardHarris123]

PM me your address, I'm not working on cylinder escapements, you might as well have them. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I appreciate that Rich, thats really kind of you matey, I'll see what i can measure with it fitted on the balance  wheel. This is new to me, I'm not sure if the staff can be removed and replaced without damage to it, doesn't look to be riveted in place and these cylinders look weak with their hollow design. I'd still like to try replacing the tampons, if you dont challenge yourself then you dont grow, but a replacement would be great as a backup thank you .

My best guess on the size at the moment is L- 3.55 some of the cylinder is buried in the balance wheel. I have a feeling the cylinder lengths dont vary too much, any discrepancy would be adjusted within the tampon depth. The diameter is 0.75. I saw a good selection of tampons a couple of months ago on ebay, i was tempted to pick them up but then i thought   nah I'll never use em .

11 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

PM me your address, I'm not working on cylinder escapements, you might as well have them. 

Are you sure ? I'll buy them from you. I'm only playing around , unlikely this will ever be cased, but I'd like to see it run. All I'm doing is testing myself to see what i can do. I have a shed load of staffs and stems so anything you need in that way i can return the favour.

[RichardHarris123]

I was wrong, full balances but not for pocket watches.  I  still won't ever use them, so if you want them or anyone else does, let me know. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I was wrong, full balances but not for pocket watches.  I  still won't ever use them, so if you want them or anyone else does, let me know. 

No problem thanks for having a look , out of curiosity are they a full cylinder with a cut out ? can i see a picture rich for my reference,  i think i have some of these. I only need the tampons which i might make on my lathe.

 

[RichardHarris123]

Yes, full cylinder.  I'll post photos when I get chance. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, full cylinder.  I'll post photos when I get chance. 

No problem just curious.

[Nucejoe]

 I have untagged assortments of staff for cylinder escapement, might have the one you need.

Just between the two of us matey, I can cheat and hide one in an airmail envelope to avoid paying international shipping charges. 

 Been planning to identiy and tag them, there must be published reference charts, wonder if this chart is of any help.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/balancestaffs

 Rgds

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nucejoe

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Rich, and Marry Christmas to all!

Sorry for the delay, I was not able to get close to the computer this days.

Many questions to answer...

The anvil needed for tampon removing looks like on the picture.

The hole has two sizes. The bigger is to take the bare cylinder, or the brass part that is riveted to the balance with the cylinder inside. The smaller size is such as the cylinder will not go through, but the tampon will. E. g., if the cylinder diameter is 0.75, then the small size will be 0.7, and the big - 0.8. This if the cylinder is out of the balance. If the cylinder is on the balance, then the big size will be little bit bigger than the collet hole size.

Yes, the hairspring side tampon can go out with cylinder on the balance. But, sometimes the tampon is very stiff and will not want to go out, then is easier to push the cylinder out and then tap the upper part of the cylinder with hammer on anvil to make tampon going out easier.

No problem to use offset punch with normal staking tool, just the anvil of the tool must be turned a little.

It is not so right to adjust the high of the cylinder by tampon position. The bottom part of the tampon must be ideally flat and polished and it must be positioned right where the mouth of the cylinder begins. This is to ensure correct oil retention.

The cylinder itself is not riveted to the balance. It is made of steel tube and has uniform diameter everywhere on it's lenght. The cylinder is pressed in a bras bush part, which has seat for the balance and for the collet, this part is riveted to the balance and is part of it, and remains on the balance when the cylinder has to be removed.

The cylinder goes out or in always in direction as the mouth will not go thru the hole. The balance on the anvil, the mouth part of the cylinder in the hole. Then a tube a little smaller than cylinder is used to push the cylinder out. If 0.75, then source 0.7mm syringe needle and cut part of it, put in a punch with 0.8 hole, then cut so it is 3mm above the head surface of the punch. This is the punch that is used to push the cylinder out.  To push the cylinder in, use anvil hole that will take the hairspring part of the riveted bush. The cylinder is lead to the bush hole, then the special punch is used for pushing the cylinder in the hole. The punch must push only the upper part of the mouth.

Edited December 26, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Rich, and Marry Christmas to all!

Sorry for the delay, I was not able to get close to the computer this days.

Many questions to answer...

The anvil needed for tampon removing looks like on the picture.

The hole has two sizes. The bigger is to take the bare cylinder, or the brass part that is riveted to the balance with the cylinder inside. The smaller size is such as the cylinder will not go through, but the tampon will. E. g., if the cylinder diameter is 0.75, then the small size will be 0.7, and the big - 0.8. This if the cylinder is out of the balance. If the cylinder is on the balance, then the big size will be little bit bigger than the collet hole size.

Yes, the hairspring side tampon can go out with cylinder on the balance. But, sometimes the tampon is very stiff and will not want to go out, then is easier to push the cylinder out and then tap the upper part of the cylinder with hammer on anvil to make tampon going out easier.

No problem to use offset punch with normal staking tool, just the anvil of the tool must be turned a little.

It is not so right to adjust the high of the cylinder by tampon position. The bottom part of the tampon must be ideally flat and polished and it must be positioned right where the mouth of the cylinder begins. This is to ensure correct oil retention.

The cylinder itself is not riveted to the balance. It is made of steel tube and has uniform diameter everywhere on it's lenght. The cylinder is pressed in a bras bush part, which has seat for the balance and for the collet, this part is riveted to the balance and is part of it, and remains on the balance when the cylinder has to be removed.

The cylinder goes out or in always in direction as the mouth will not go thru the hole. The balance on the anvil, the mouth part of the cylinder in the hole. Then a tube a little smaller than cylinder is used to push the cylinder out. If 0.75, then source 0.7mm syringe needle and cut part of it, put in a punch with 0.8 hole, then cut so it is 3mm above the head surface of the punch. This is the punch that is used to push the cylinder out.  To push the cylinder in, use anvil hole that will take the hairspring part of the riveted bush. The cylinder is lead to the bush hole, then the special punch is used for pushing the cylinder in the hole. The punch must push only the upper part of the mouth.

Thanks nev and a merry xmas to you. I have tried today to remove the broken tampon. Trying this while the cylinder is fitted to the brass ring and on the balance, the tampon is tight in the cylinder but will move with taps .The offset punch i have will not do, the pin is too short and will not reach the tampon to push it all the way out. Next move is to make another punch with a longer pin. Appreciate all the time you made explain the process. 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, but the lenght of the pin is limited by the hihgt of the mouth and the opening of the cylinder. The way to do the thing is to put something on the flat surface of the bottom of tampon, e.g. ball from ball pen. Usually it is enough to make tampon pop up a little, then it will be able to catch it with good pliers/cutter pliers, twist and pull it

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, but the lenght of the pin is limited by the hihgt of the mouth and the opening of the cylinder. The way to do the thing is to put something on the flat surface of the bottom of tampon, e.g. ball from ball pen. Usually it is enough to make tampon pop up a little, then it will be able to catch it with good pliers/cutter pliers, twist and pull it

Thanks nev, i understand the pin has to fit inside the opening. I should be able to find something to place on top of the tampon to act as a spacer.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks nev, i understand the pin has to fit inside the opening. I should be able to find something to place on top of the tampon to act as a spacer.

May be a picture might help. One of the problems with the punches below are typically not always of the right size for your cylinder. Plus of course the lower part has to be the exact right size as you want to support the shell and not the plug when you're trying to push it out

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

May be a picture might help. One of the problems with the punches below are typically not always of the right size for your cylinder. Plus of course the lower part has to be the exact right size as you want to support the shell and not the plug when you're trying to push it out

Hi John.  Yes thank you for the picture. I have exactly that stake but the offset pin is too short to reach the tampon to push it out enough to grasp it from the opposite side. I will drop something into the cylinder to make up the difference. 

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

May be a picture might help. One of the problems with the punches below are typically not always of the right size for your cylinder. Plus of course the lower part has to be the exact right size as you want to support the shell and not the plug when you're trying to push it out

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Its out, now i need to make one

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:17 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its out, now i need to make one

A diamond file and a Jacot provided me with another pivot, its not there yet it still needs a cone adding and the pivots sizing and polishing.  The broken one was hand made with just a rough taper up to the pivot and seemed more than long enough to re-use so i filed the taper out to extend the pivot, i didnt trust my lathe skills so I used the Jacot to clean it up. If the movement tick for a few minutes I'll be more than happy.