Submariner Crown and Stem Problem

[watchme]

Hello all.  I have had, and wear pretty regularly, a Rolex Submariner for the past 20+ years.  I got the watch used so I'm not certain as to it's actual age, but it was in very good condition and has always worked well.  The other day, while attempting to adjust the time, I pulled on the crown (as I always have done) and the crown and stem pulled out of the watch.  As if this wasn't bad enough, I then noticed that, despite the second hand continuing to sweep, the minute hand wasn't advancing.

Being a mechanical engineer, my first thought was to attempt to fix this myself.  However, being that I'm a complete novice at watch repair, I felt it best to ask if those in the know believe this is something that can be done by a layman (albeit one who has interest and enjoys working with their hands)?

[Nucejoe]

This involves  hands, dial plate, date disk removal to gain access to the keyless and while there to check the minute train as well.

The least would be keyless has misaligned, and what caused it, and likely to need a part replaced with new.

This is a fine jewel, best to entrust it in experienced hands.

Rgds

 

[watchme]

Well that's a bummer!  I was kind of hoping that I could get my feet wet with this one, but it does sound more complicated than I expected.

 

I'm in the United States and over an hour away from the nearest town (which won't have someone who can work on this).  Can anyone recommend someone to work on this for me?  I understand that they have a full service network, but it's rather costly so I would be willing to use a reputable independent person/place.

[CYCLOPS]

Hi, there is a chance to reinsert the original stem and crown into the movement [the hands should turn like normal at this point], [since the set lever is in setting position the stem will need to be pulled out about a millimeter or less to align the lever and stem slot]  tighten the set lever screw slightly and see if it all re-aligns, in this case you must be careful to not force anything when re-inserting the stem, slightly tighten the set lever screw and you can feel it drop into the recess of the stem, this is your only hope,  most of the time when this happens the set lever screw works its way loose enough for the stem to release, sometimes in the process of release it still manages to pull the set lever into setting position, which shifts the sliding pinion [clutch wheel] into setting mode, this resistance can freeze the hour and minute hands, most of the time the clutch wheel slips out from under the clutch wheel lever and all is lost on the easy fix, in this case the hands and dial will have to be removed and all put back in place to function, I know most watchmakers will want to service this watch at this point so be prepared.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, CYCLOPS said:

Hi, there is a chance to reinsert the original stem and crown into the movement [the hands should turn like normal at this point], [since the set lever is in setting position the stem will need to be pulled out about a millimeter or less to align the lever and stem slot]  tighten the set lever screw slightly and see if it all re-aligns, in this case you must be careful to not force anything when re-inserting the stem, slightly tighten the set lever screw and you can feel it drop into the recess of the stem, this is your only hope,  most of the time when this happens the set lever screw works its way loose enough for the stem to release, sometimes in the process of release it still manages to pull the set lever into setting position, which shifts the sliding pinion [clutch wheel] into setting mode, this resistance can freeze the hour and minute hands, most of the time the clutch wheel slips out from under the clutch wheel lever and all is lost on the easy fix, in this case the hands and dial will have to be removed and all put back in place to function, I know most watchmakers will want to service this watch at this point so be prepared.

How will watchme access the set lever screw ?

[watchme]

On 12/16/2023 at 6:19 AM, CYCLOPS said:

Hi, there is a chance to reinsert the original stem and crown into the movement [the hands should turn like normal at this point], [since the set lever is in setting position the stem will need to be pulled out about a millimeter or less to align the lever and stem slot]  tighten the set lever screw slightly and see if it all re-aligns, in this case you must be careful to not force anything when re-inserting the stem, slightly tighten the set lever screw and you can feel it drop into the recess of the stem, this is your only hope,  most of the time when this happens the set lever screw works its way loose enough for the stem to release, sometimes in the process of release it still manages to pull the set lever into setting position, which shifts the sliding pinion [clutch wheel] into setting mode, this resistance can freeze the hour and minute hands, most of the time the clutch wheel slips out from under the clutch wheel lever and all is lost on the easy fix, in this case the hands and dial will have to be removed and all put back in place to function, I know most watchmakers will want to service this watch at this point so be prepared.

Well it's certainly worth a try, I'm game.  Will the set lever screw be plainly visible after I remove the back? 

Also, normally, when I pull on the crown to adjust the time, the second hand freezes.  Right now it's sweeping (as though it's keeping time), but the minute (and hour) hand is frozen.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchme said:

Well it's certainly worth a try, I'm game.  Will the set lever screw be plainly visible after I remove the back? 

Also, normally, when I pull on the crown to adjust the time, the second hand freezes.  Right now it's sweeping (as though it's keeping time), but the minute (and hour) hand is frozen.

This i think has a push button to release when hou remove the caseback the stem, not entirely sure which side will have the set lever screw on. If its the dial side then you might need to remove the hands and dial to get to the screw to tighten it back up for the push button to work correctly again. Here are a few pictures that may help. The first two are from the watchmaker side which you will see when you take off the caseback , that maybe the set lever screw next to the button. The last picture is from the dial side showing the keyless work that move to release the stem when you push the button. You first obstacle will be to get the back off. Good luck. 

[Kalanag]

The fact that the watch is still ticking and the minute hand doesn’t move means that the sliding clutch and the hacking lever are out of position.

You will not be able to refit these components correctly without removing the movement from the case, pulling the hands and get the dial off. Without experience in watchmaking and appropriate tools you will for sure damage expensive parts of your Rolex. As Nucejoe said…

Edited December 18, 2023 by Kalanag

[Endeavor]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:57 AM, watchme said:

Being a mechanical engineer,

Not to despair directly, at least you have a nice goal to work towards to.

As a mechanical engineer I serviced, as a novice, my Rolex Submariner too. However, before doing so, and knowing that working on (certainly by now) such an expensive watch, requires quite some skills. Next to watching lots of Youtube videos (https://weww.youtube.com/watch?v=nUZ3xB5fI-k), I acquired tools and trained myself (over and over again), next to some others, on two 17mm NOS ETA2541 ladies movements.

What I'm trying to say, there is a chance that you can repair your Rolex yourself, but you have to acquire the knowledge, tools and skill first. If you are willing to put in all the time, money & effort, you may have, next to your Rolex fixed, an interesting hobby for the rest of your life.

If you are not willing, or able to, and you value your 20+ years companion, bring it to somebody with lots of experience and has a very good reputation (preferably to an official Rolex service point). Yes, it will cost you, but you may regret it later if you bring your Rolex to some friend of a friend who's handy with cuckoo clocks.

For sure, your Rolex won't be your first watch to have a go on .......

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:57 PM, watchme said:

but it was in very good condition and has always worked well.

One of the problems with watches especially Rolex watches are there sealed up and not visible to the user. A lot of times on Rolex discussion groups people are very happy that the inherited a watch and it's running perfect and why should they send it to the greedy watchmaker. Yes Rolex people like to complain about the cost of Rolex servicing. But that's sealed up watch has gaskets and over time they will disintegrate and conceivably moisture will get into the watch even tiny quantities. Moisture forms rust and of course lubrication typically doesn't last for ever and if you can combine rust of lubrication it's a nice grinding compound. So yes your watch is in good condition and worked well but is it really in good condition if it's having issues? There really is a reason why watches should be serviced approximately every five years.

On 12/11/2023 at 5:57 PM, watchme said:

Rolex Submariner

It would really be helpful to have a movement number? You'll find that out when you the back off or we can probably get it from the model number found between the case  lugs.

[Kalanag]

After 20+ years the watch urgently needs a service. If it is done by an offcial Rolex service center all movement parts are exchanged routinely that show the slightest sign of wear (without additional costs). So the money for the service is invested well!

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

…As a mechanical engineer I serviced, as a novice, my Rolex Submariner too. However, before doing so, and knowing that working on (certainly by now) such an expensive watch, requires quite some skills. Next to watching lots of Youtube videos (https://weww.youtube.com/watch?v=nUZ3xB5fI-k), I acquired tools and trained myself (over and over again), next to some others, on two 17mm NOS ETA2541 ladies movements...

Same here 

Except I practiced on a Chinese clone which was mainly identical to the original.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Kalanag

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

I acquired tools and trained myself (over and over again)

I started servicing and repairing some six years ago. Since then I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I have spent an amount of money on tools, consumables, equipment, and accessories corresponding to the cost of a decent Rolex Submariner. Taking my first steps I thought: "How hard can it be?". Since then I've learned that it can be pretty damn hard.

BTW, I just listened to a Swedish pod (Klocksnack) with a Rolex representative talking about "Rolex certified pre-owned", where I learned that the reason Rolex can provide that wonderful service for the customers is that Rolex watches a nearly indestructible and so much better built than all other watches. Having heard this, I'm surprised that the stem and crown pulled out of the watch. Are you sure it is a genuine Rolex? I mean, the real thing being indestructible and all.

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

real thing being indestructible and all

That's what Rolex likes you to believe

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

That's what Rolex likes you to believe

Oh, I had no idea, thanks for enlightening me!  

I’m fed up with all YouTube videos and pods about Rolex watches (80 % of them?) I understand it, it draws attention, but it also makes Rolex stand out as exceptional and superior to everything else. It becomes a vicious spiral. Yes, Rolex watches are high quality watches, but the world of horology is so much more, and people in general miss out on it believing Rolex is the be-all and end-all when in reality it’s far from it.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, VWatchie said:

YouTube videos and pods about Rolex

Personally what I really like our YouTube videos on servicing Rolex watches. Some of the YouTube channels which will remain nameless are more entertainment and if you're watching carefully they skip a lot of steps you kinda hope they covered all of the steps when servicing but you're never quite sure. They barely even time the watch in case at all backup.

Basically the way I think of Rolex is it's the Timex of high grade watches. This will probably get the wrath of our local Timex owner mad at me for saying that but basically it's a mass-produced high grade watch. Which up until 2004 wasn't even made by Rolex it was made by another company under contract which is even more amusing. It's always nice to tell a Rolex owner that the Rolex watch was made by another company under contract from Rolex because Rolex didn't have control of the factory until 2004.

 

[VWatchie]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:21 AM, JohnR725 said:

basically it's a mass-produced high grade watch. Which up until 2004 wasn't even made by Rolex it was made by another company under contract which is even more amusing

The truly amazing thing about Rolex, which no other brand even comes close to, where Rolex reigns supreme, is the hype. I'd love to have a Rolex but I'm not into hype, so unless I can get a Rolex for a price that matches its quality (which would still be quite a bit of money), rather than its hype, I'm not interested. The kind of money some people are ready to pay for hype and added status is in my opinion insane.

[RichardHarris123]

Rolex have a brilliant marketing department, that's for sure.  My daily is on my profile photo, Omega Aqua Terra , coaxial. Yes, expensive but the Rolex equivalent would be several thousands of pounds more. Why, because of marketing. 

[Jon]

To be honest, Rolexs are well-made watch movements and that's why they are expensive, as well as the hype. They have lots of patents and features that you won't find in other watches. The reason something like a submariner is a lot of money is because it's not just the name on the dial and a fancy bracelet. Half of what you are paying for is the remarkable engineering inside, not just the bling that you can see. You can spend 8 grand on an IWC only to find out it has a 300 quid ETA movement inside. That's like buying an Aston Martin only to find a VW engine under the hood. Rolex doesn't pull these stunts as it's all in-house movements. When you work on a modern Rolex 3135 or 3285 you'll know why you're paying large sums for it. They are an absolute joy to service in my experience. Personally my favourite to service is the 1530 Air King from the 60's. They never had a chronometer standard but you can easily get them running like it. Patek Phillipe is the same. Total quality! When you work on one, you know what you are paying for and it isn't a crappy ETA 2892-2 modular chronograph that Breitling sticks in their pieces of crud.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Jon

[VWatchie]

14 minutes ago, Jon said:

Half of what you are paying for is the remarkable engineering inside, not just the bling that you can see.

We seem to agree, although your way of putting is w/o my resentment. To each his own, and I guess you should never say never, but I'd be hard-pressed to pay over £6000 for the bling, status, and hype of a Rolex Submariner. Thinking about it, I'd even be hard-pressed to pay the other £6000 for the remarkable engineering.

I can get a mass-produced high-grade Swiss watch with remarkable engineering for about 30 per cent of the cost of a Rolex, but it won't say Rolex on the dial. When it comes to the hype, Rolex reigns supreme, and that's what's truly remarkable and sets Rolex apart from every other brand.

My main message, as I mentioned previously,  is that the world of horology is so much more than Rolex, and people in general (not the nerds) miss out on it believing Rolex is the be-all and end-all when in reality it’s far from it. The hype has become a vicious money-making circle, and that's why a majority of social media about watches include the word Rolex, and I'm fed up with it.

Just realized we strayed quite a bit from the topic of the OP, so my apologies for that.

[Jon]

15 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Just realized we strayed quite a bit from the topic of the OP, so my apologies for that.

We did! And I agree with everything you said. I wouldn't buy one for the reasons you stated

[VWatchie]

6 minutes ago, Jon said:

We did! And I agree with everything you said. I wouldn't buy one for the reasons you stated

The hype apart, I'd love to own, wear, and work on a Rolex for its remarkable engineering and amazing design!

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The truly amazing thing about Rolex, which no other brand even comes close to, where Rolex reigns supreme, is the hype. I'd love to have a Rolex but I'm not into hype, so unless I can get a Rolex for a price that matches its quality (which would still be quite a bit of money), rather than its hype, I'm not interested. The kind of money some people are ready to pay for hype and added status is in my opinion insane

I'm a little confused here all the watch companies have hyped that their watches are outstanding. f you want to look at a ripoff look at a quartz watch for a couple hundred dollars. I see this all the time where I work with the changing batteries they bring in all these watches name brands and inside is a movement that cost bike $5-$25. Getting a five dollar plastic movement in a case for a couple hundred dollars doesn't seem like a ripoff

versus a Rolex movement that's expensive and is probably chronometer certified in a stainless steel case Still seems like a much better deal than they quartz watch.

But to a certain degree are right about the hype because of the hype a lot of the Rolex watches are now worth way more than what they cost brand-new. Then Rolex of course doesn't play games with artificial shortages which a course and bumps up the price even more some of the new watches on the secondary market cost more than they would if they were brand-new. But still it still a very nice watch inside.

[VWatchie]

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm a little confused here all the watch companies have hyped that their watches are outstanding.

I think that is true for most watch brands but not so much for Rolex. They don't necessarily need to hype their products as social media does it for them. So, Rolex is unique in this respect. When was the last time you saw social media go bananas over the latest release from Daniel Wellington, discussing it endlessly, making hundreds or thousands of hours of video about it? If Rolex lets off a tiny, barely audible fart, you can spend days and weeks reading about it and watching it on video. It has become a vicious circle where many other, equally good watches, get a lot less attention than they deserve and that is in my opinion sad.

Rolex deserves and has a given place in the world of horology, but the world of horology is so much more than Rolex, and I encourage everyone to explore it!

And, as far as the hype, status, and bling goes, 19 out of 20 (or so) Rolex watches spotted on the wrist of people are fake. So, unless you're already known to be successful and well-off, no one will think you're wearing the real thing.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Rolex deserves and has a given place in the world of horology, but the world of horology is so much more than Rolex, and I encourage everyone to explore it!

As I said the Timex of high grade watches. For which I'm not trying to insult Timex but they still mass-produce a very very high grade watch. But there's other of watches that are possibly nicer it better but they're not made in the same quantities. Typically they would cost way way way more money. They're not as well known. This is what happens for a A few key placements and movies for instance like who gets to have their watch in a James Bond movie although Omega has been there for quite some time

then you really can't fault a company of that still has a lot a hype whether they're doing or not. The purpose of companies are to survive and if you want to survive you have to be on the tongue of every single person thinking about buying a watch.

 

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

then you really can't fault a company of that still has a lot a hype whether they're doing or not

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here John, but I don't think I ever blamed Rolex for the hype of their watches. My beef is with social media, that know that the word Rolex draws attention. Instead of covering equally or even more interesting watches, they chose Rolex to get more views and more readers. It has become a vicious circle where too many people seem to believe that Rolex is the holy grail of watches when it is far, very far from it. Anyway, I'm done trying to express my opinion. If you don't get it or understand it I can only regret it, but that's OK!