Erratic timegrapher reading

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, ekv81 said:

I did not realize that. I already knew that IPA will dissolve shellac but had been led to believe that Ronson is safe to use.

It is safe to use but that depends on how its used. It was established a while ago that the combination of an ultrasonic machine, more so one that is used with added heat ( and they do generate heat whether the heat function is used or not ) that the agitation can remove shellac in a relatively short space of time again more so in a US that is not specifically designed for cleaning watch parts.The age of the shellac can also make a difference, so OH is also correct in stating it can be left overnight in a static jar, something I've done many times. Alex from about time has a video on this exact subject, i also did the same tests with more or less the same results, for this reason of unknown variables i always hand clean the balance and lever in Perc unless the balance has a friction fitted impulse pin.

7 hours ago, ekv81 said:

I was left impressed

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Haha believe me i have taken much worse photos, i can add that  your subsequent ones were better

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

@Nucejoe I'm confused, are you saying that the danger to the shellac is from the Ronson (naphtha) or with the ultrasonic or both or....?

 Many member have ultrasonic and this expirement is easy to do, and see the result for yourself.

Only then a discussion on this subject can have validity  and  be useful to all. 

Discussing it here is hijacking this thread.

I think Ronson  mildly interact with shellac, ultrasonic washes the soften layer away, so a new shellac layer is exposed .

 

Rgds

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Discussing it here is hijacking this thread

haven't you noticed how many discussions on this group stayed purely in the subject and don't get hijacked

one of the interesting problems and watch repair seems to be lots and lots and lots of variations. For instance isopropyl alcohol there's a YouTube video out there showing the evils of it yet lots of people in the group use it and where I go and work it's the final rinse in a cleaning machine and as far as I can tell we never have any problems from the alcohol. But they're still YouTube video showing how evil and bad it is and it will dissolve all the shellac instantly etc.

I believe the same video talked about why it's very bad to ultrasonic leak clean anything with shellac with anything even including commercial solvents and once again my experience with ultrasonic and cleaning watches it works fine of course I don't leave it in there all day. As you pointed out when ultrasonic machines run they typically will heat up the fluid and heat and fluids can be bad with time

but even bad things like some alcohols 100% will dissolve shellac and when I was cleaning at home I used one of those alcohols as a final final rinse because the commercial watch rinses don't dry at all. which is why Elmont recommended isopropyl alcohol for the machine at work and I was using the dangerous alcohol that does dissolve shellac but I was only using at the rinse off the rinse for a few seconds and never had a problem.

But it's always worth mentioning that you can have a problem or you can have the peculiar set of circumstances where you can have a problem especially with extended soaking or extended cleaning so it's always wise to check the components that are supposed to have shellac to make sure they do. I for instance typically doing vintage pocket watches always check my roller jewel because I never know what it was attached with before just to make sure it's good

 

[ekv81]

I wanted to come back to provide an update. I made the suggested adjustment to the hairspring and the erratic behavior I saw before is gone. On a full wind I have managed to get it within plus or minus 10 seconds in dial up, dial down and crown down positions. However crown up shows between minus 30-40 seconds with 0.6 ms beat error compared to 0.0 ms in crown down but with similar amplitude.

I did get the hairsping out of flat when it was removed from the balance staff but was able to correct this, or so I think. Could this problem be due to the hairspring still being slightly out of flat or does something else come to mind?

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, ekv81 said:

I did get the hairsping out of flat when it was removed from the balance staff but was able to correct this, or so I think. Could this problem be due to the hairspring still being slightly out of flat or does something else come to mind?

The coil is unlikely to foul itself when slightly out of flat.

Is the outer coil no longer hitting the stud now?I

Is hairspring at midpoint of regulator stud with balance stopped? 

 

2 hours ago, ekv81 said:

 On a full wind I have managed to get it within plus or minus 10 seconds in dial up, dial down and crown down positions. However crown up shows between minus 30-40 seconds with 0.6 ms beat error compared to 0.0 ms in crown down but with similar amplitude.

Excessive side shake in the escapement.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Nucejoe

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, ekv81 said:

However crown up shows between minus 30-40 seconds with 0.6 ms beat error compared to 0.0 ms in crown down but with similar amplitude.

We would really need to see the crown positions all four of them to see if you have a poise error of the balance wheel. Then gravity is interesting it influences the hairspring in the crown positions when it pulls they hairspring down it causes the hairspring to rotate the balance wheel ever so slightly causing a beat error. Although 0.6 seems a little higher than usual but if the watches keeping time I probably wouldn't worry about it. People often times get way too obsessed with trying to make watches keep perfect time which can lead to interesting consequences and not necessarily make the timekeeping better.

 

 

[Klassiker]

What's the timing like after 12 and 24 hours? If those values are closely grouped, and you are wearing the watch on your left wrist, you should be able to regulate for excellent real-world performance. In that case I'd be tempted to call it a day.

[nevenbekriev]

John is right about doubthing in balance poising, buy yes, all the 4 vertical positions readings needed.

OP, Hairspring as a part of the balance assembly participares in poising of it. In contemporary  watches the balances are not statically poised, but adjusted in positions, or with other words - poised dynamically. In this 'poising' the hairspring mass is compensated, no mater if  centered or not well centered.  Now, after what You have done to the hairspring (to make it flat, as You say) it, as I guess, to the beginning of it, where attached to the collet, the hairspring is not centered as it was before, and 30 sec/day is well within what centering adjustment to the hairsprinf may bring. So yes, the problem well could be due hairspring, but not that it is not flat, but that is not centered (in it's beginning, near the collet) as it should.