Can I use moebius 8200 grease instead of 9501?

[danderson]

The subject says it all. I'm partway through reassembling my Molnija 3602 movement, and I'm at the point where I need to reassemble the keyless works and motion works. Both call for grease. I have some moebius 9501 on the way, but it won't be here until late next week. What I have on hand is 9010, HP 1300, and 8200 mainspring grease.

Of those, the 8200 is the closest analog. From the datasheets, the main difference seems to be that 9501 is non-fusing, whereas 8200 will turn liquid and run out of where it's applied with just a little temperature increase. That seems to disqualify it for use on the cannon pinion and keyless works parts, I think?

Anyone have experience using 8200 as a stand-in for general purpose grease? Should I sit on my hands and wait for the 9501, or is 8200 passable?

[Waggy]

To be honest I would not risk having oil/grease running loose in the watch, if any comes into contact with the hairspring (for instance) then you will need to re-clean it and the coils will stick together, it can also impinge on the efficient running of the wheels etc. I feel your pain as I too dislike waiting, but it you go ahead it may be a case of one step forward and two steps back.

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, Waggy said:

To be honest I would not risk having oil/grease running loose in the watch, if any comes into contact with the hairspring (for instance) then you will need to re-clean it and the coils will stick together, it can also impinge on the efficient running of the wheels etc. I feel your pain as I too dislike waiting, but it you go ahead it may be a case of one step forward and two steps back

You obviously haven't seen the eta  tech sheets where they recommend HP 1300 which is an oil for the keyless. Although they also recommend epilam to keep the oil wherever it's supposed to be. Which is why typically I prefer 9504 because it Stays where it's supposed to be And doesn't go running all over the universe and you don't need Epilam to keep it in place

9 hours ago, danderson said:

whereas 8200 will turn liquid and run out of where it's applied with just a little temperature increase.

If you look on the website the grease specified as Semi-fluid thixotropic grease. Basically it means that your semi-fluid grease becomes considerably more fluid on impact or movement or stirring or well in the keyless mechanism it would become more like a oil. Basically it wouldn't be the best grease to use but you're learning you need practice go ahead and use it anyway. Then when you get a proper grease you can service the watch again or as experiment see how well it works. I would probably go super minimalistic to keep it from running over the place though.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

 

 

 

 

[mikepilk]

I switched from using HP1300 to Molykote DX grease on all the sliding parts of the keyless. Being a grease it stays where you put it, and it's cheap 

I know the pros don't like it as it can contaminate the fluids in the cleaning machines, but as a home hobbyist, that's not a problem. 

[danderson]

6 hours ago, Waggy said:

To be honest I would not risk having oil/grease running loose in the watch.

I feel your pain as I too dislike waiting, but it you go ahead it may be a case of one step forward and two steps back.

Makes sense. This is not an extremely precious movement to me, but I would like to not deliberately make it worse either.

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You obviously haven't seen the eta  tech sheets where they recommend HP 1300 which is an oil for the keyless. Although they also recommend epilam to keep the oil wherever it's supposed to be.

If you look on the website the grease specified as Semi-fluid thixotropic grease. Basically it means that your semi-fluid grease becomes considerably more fluid on impact or movement or stirring or well in the keyless mechanism it would become more like a oil.

TIL epilame and thixotropic grease, thank you! When I first opened this movement, the keyless works were a bit of a mess of smeared oils. I guess that's what happened there, along with 40 years of time passing.

Epilame treatment seems like very fine work that I probably cannot do well yet, plus I also don't have any so I'd be waiting for another delivery... But it's very good information on the intention of this lubrication, that it needs to stay where it's put because unlike pivots and such, there's nothing else keeping the lubricant in the right place...

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I switched from using HP1300 to Molykote DX grease on all the sliding parts of the keyless. Being a grease it stays where you put it, and it's cheap 

I know the pros don't like it as it can contaminate the fluids in the cleaning machines, but as a home hobbyist, that's not a problem. 

Weirdly, for whatever reason, Molykote DX was tricky for me to get on any sensible timeline. It was all backordered or special ordered. That's why I stuck to 9501, it was purely a question of being the most available!

 

So, sounds like as a beginner, who isn't doing work for hire, and not working on a particularly rare or precious movement... I could play more fast and loose with lubricant types, but if I do I'll probably have to service the movement again fairly soon to clean up the mess. Given the 9501 should show up tomorrow, it seems worth waiting and reserving improvisation for when I have more experience.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I switched from using HP1300 to Molykote DX grease on all the sliding parts of the keyless. Being a grease it stays where you put it, and it's cheap 

I know the pros don't like it as it can contaminate the fluids in the cleaning machines, but as a home hobbyist, that's not a problem. 

I've been using DX since i started, labelled as a paste or a paste grease, supposed to be for handling lower friction areas and sliding components compared to greases. I noticed a while back that Dow do make what might be a better alternative to DX known as  lubricating paints that cure to metal surfaces. 

[rehajm]

Aaaaah...a classic lubrication thread....

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I know the pros don't like it as it can contaminate the fluids in the cleaning machines, but as a home hobbyist, that's not a problem.

I recently serviced a Smiths W10 (posted here somewhere) where it was obvious the previous watchmaker was skilled and careful and prudent...or so I said to myself as I spent significant time  scrubbing off the the DX from his carefully placed locations ...

18 hours ago, danderson said:

I have some moebius 9501 on the way, but it won't be here until late next week.

9501 is sooooo last week, or so Moebius tells us. Only 9504 is the way to go...composed of the basic Moebius 9501 grease and a metallic soap to get increased adhesion and consistency. A neutral additive gives it excellent high-pressure resistance and good attrition...plus, it's that bitchin' bright blue color the YouTubers love....

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, danderson said:

the keyless works were a bit of a mess of smeared oils. I guess that's what happened there, along with 40 years of time passing.

One of the amusements in the universe of horology is lubrication.  Then I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there were using oil.

2 hours ago, danderson said:

So, sounds like as a beginner, who isn't doing work for hire, and not working on a particularly rare or precious movement... I could play more fast and loose with lubricant types, but if I do I'll probably have to service the movement again fairly soon to clean up the mess. Given the 9501 should show up tomorrow, it seems worth waiting and reserving improvisation for when I have more experience.

It doesn't really matter whether you're a beginner and not.

With the Swiss and watches we get interesting problems for lubrication. For instance the keyless a high friction component area where in any other field they would use a grease. But what do the Swiss use it depends on when the tech sheet was printed. Omega for instance the late 50s was using 9010 on the keyless and of course they used epilam to keep it in place. So it's considered the lightest lubrication oil we have there were using as an extreme high-pressure situation? Then if you look at evolution of the tech sheets they slowly did increase the viscosity of the oil and now they're up the HP 1300 which does have a habit of running all over the place unless you use epilam. But why we never get an answer

when I was in school I assume it was recommended I was using a $20 to above PML believe they call the stem grease. Worked really really nice gave the keyless a really nice feel and the bonus of the watches I had service looking at them over time it stayed where it was supposed to be didn't run away like an oil.

14 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Only 9504 is the way to go

One of the nice things about working someplace even if they are really really cheap is you can sometimes ask for other lubricants and they magically show up like 9504. When you're working on 18 size American pocket watches you can have a lot of areas of extreme high friction and this is definitely the best lubrication I found for that application. So it's now my favorite grease for keyless works.

Not just beginners hobbyist or whoever if you're servicing your own watches you can do whatever you feel like. Then the fun thing to do is look at one your watches you've serviced Initially I keep a closer look every few months or whenever you feel like it but years and now you look at your watch service it again and see if you lubrication choices were good choices or not.

 

[Waggy]

12 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I switched from using HP1300 to Molykote DX grease

I tried Etsyntha precision grease B 52 semi-synthetic, it's good stuff and I would have stuck with it BUT it's completely clear (as are their 1-3 and 3-5 watch oils), so it's hard to see where you have put it (or not). At least with Moly DX (which I have gone back to) it's an opaque white and you can see where you have put it and perhaps more importantly where it has migrated to. It may be worth a quick email to Dr Tillwich to see if they have a version which is visible ....maybe an even brighter blue than 9504 !!?? 

 

Email sent to them, wonder how they will react to it?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Waggy
Typo

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Etsyntha precision grease B 52 semi-synthetic, it's good stuff and I would have stuck with it BUT it's completely clear (as are their 1-3 and 3-5 watch oils), so it's hard to see where you have put it (or not).

I've always wondered about this for a lubrication because it's inexpensive and the company makes good products. But yes invisible agrees that could be an issue.

50 minutes ago, Waggy said:

maybe an even brighter blue than 9504

Oh you would like brighter blue it's not bright enough for you have a look at the link

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

Scroll down until you get to 9504-FL We don't get a picture but the same blue color and it now fluoresces under UV light for those people who absolutely have to see where they're putting their lubrication.

Oh and invisibility apparently it's not really a bad thing look at the next lubrication 9504-SC. Although it's not really going to be invisible because the powdered lubrication that was added is white in color so it would look white.