Seeking buying advice: Jacot tool

[Knebo]

Hello everyone, 

I'm thinking of adding a Jacot tool to my collection. 

I found this one from Steiner (now Horia). Apparently very clean (waiting for more photos). 

But just in terms of completeness, does it look good? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Hello everyone, 

I'm thinking of adding a Jacot tool to my collection. 

I found this one from Steiner (now Horia). Apparently very clean (waiting for more photos). 

But just in terms of completeness, does it look good? 

You would want to ask the seller for pictures of the lanterns hidden under the covers. These can often be broken.

[oldhippy]

It look good and complete even with the bow which is normally missing. it is in its rightful box as the indentations in side the lid match up with the tool. Do as Neverenoughwatches said get good clear photos 

[Knebo]

Thanks for the initial feedback! 

Here are more photos:

[nickelsilver]

What folks are concerned about are the lanterns, thins discs on the opposite side of the runners (under the protective caps), that allow working on the pivot ends. These are often chipped or worse.

 

Replacements are available from Horia for 70 bucks a piece. This set doesn't have the double ended runner for center wheels, which is handy. It's not missing, it's just a smaller set. Those cost a cool 490... so if it's something you think you will miss, it's worth looking for the larger set that includes it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks for the initial feedback! 

Here are more photos:

Ah these are the runner ends, i wonder if the seller is hidding the lantern ends that are used for dressing the end of the pivot. Or possibly all ends are runners. This is what you are looking to see pictures of, actually not lol as these are broken, not a biggie if one or two holes are missing , but this example is a lot of damage.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

35 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

This set doesn't have the double ended runner for center wheels, which is handy. It's not missing, it's just a smaller set.

When I bought my first Jacot lathe I had no idea there was such a thing as a runner for centre wheels. So, I got myself a second Jacot, a Steiner, including the runner for centre wheels and now I really wouldn't want to be without it. My advice would be to keep looking!

Personally, I was extremely lucky to find a Steiner including the centre wheel runner for very little money not too long ago. You can see it here.

The reason I found it at all, and for so little money (I believe), was that I searched German eBay.de using German watch tool terminology.

[Knebo]

Thanks all again! 

Here are the missing photos. You were right, there is damage. Two holes missing.. 

I'm still tempted because I could have it for less than 100 USD. 

I'm wondering if these can be replaced / where to source them? 

[nickelsilver]

You can get them directly from Horia

 

https://www.horia.ch/Scripts/Modules/CustomView/List.aspx?idn=238&name=ShopCategory&pg=2

[Neverenoughwatches]

38 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks all again! 

Here are the missing photos. You were right, there is damage. Two holes missing.. 

I'm still tempted because I could have it for less than 100 USD. 

I'm wondering if these can be replaced / where to source them? 

Thats not so bad a couple of holes missing, the pivots dont have to fit holes exactly, you could get away with  what you have. A hundred bucks seems ok if the rest of the tool is fine, you could wait a while for a better deal or pay a whole lot more for something crappier.

[Knebo]

9 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

You can get them directly from Horia

 

https://www.horia.ch/Scripts/Modules/CustomView/List.aspx?idn=238&name=ShopCategory&pg=2

I guess that's why one would try to buy a Steiner/Horia lathe instead of other brands? Or are there other brands where you'd find replacement pieces?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

When I bought my first Jacot lathe I had no idea there was such a thing as a runner for centre wheels. So, I got myself a second Jacot, a Steiner, including the runner for centre wheels and now I really wouldn't want to be without it. My advice would be to keep looking!

Thanks, that's a very useful hint. 

 

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

lantern ends

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

the lanterns, thins discs

Got it! I got the photos and indeed the 12 and 13 size are broken

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I guess that's why one would try to buy a Steiner/Horia lathe instead of other brands? Or are there other brands where you'd find replacement pieces?

 

 

 

Thanks, that's a very useful hint. 

 

Got it! I got the photos and indeed the 12 and 13 size are broken

 

Good deal

[nickelsilver]

You won't find replacement parts for any other brands. First, Steiner was one of the only ones to make the ends of the runners replaceable, and second, they are the only ones (Horia) still making these.

[Knebo]

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Good deal

You mean the tool I posted for 100 USD?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, Knebo said:

You mean the tool I posted for 100 USD?

 

100 bucks for a Steiner is a good price, it might not be a big set and some low damage but as far as i know the Maker is about as good as you get. Personally i would go for, you will always get your money back plus with reselling it

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

100 bucks for a Steiner is a good price, it might not be a big set and some low damage but as far as i know the Maker is about as good as you get. Personally i would go for, you will always get your money back plus with reselling it

Thanks!

 

I'm also pursuing this bigger Steiner set (after the comments about the center wheel). Waiting to get detailed photos of the runners and laterns -- seller tells me that he can send over the weekend... so I have to be patient. It's more expensive, though at 170 USD.

Another question in the meantime please... if the bow is missing, does this DIY "pass-holder" approach work just as well or even better? And would it work with these types of Steiner tools?

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Knebo

[LittleWatchShop]

My inherited Jacot has those "lantern" discs in perfect condition.  However, I do not know how they are used.  I am an amateur and it shows!!

[nickelsilver]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My inherited Jacot has those "lantern" discs in perfect condition.  However, I do not know how they are used.  I am an amateur and it shows!!

The lantern discs let the pivot end stick out, thus their thinness. So you can work on the end, round it, whatever. But- there's (almost) always a burr! Very tricky. I make balance staffs regularly, procedure is: turn basic staff, harden and temper, cut pivots (leaving ~0.005 to 0.01+mm diameter), rivet, and roller taper. Rivet to balance. Finish pivot diameters in jacot lathe. Chuck in normal watch lathe and finish ends.

 

I haven't used the lanterns for finishing ends since last century.  But- they are handy for straightening pivots on 4th wheels and chronos! So all my Jacot tools have all their lanterns intact.

[Knebo]

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

Another question in the meantime please... if the bow is missing, does this DIY "pass-holder" approach work just as well or even better? And would it work with these types of Steiner tools?

My question above probably got overlooked because I edited it into my previous post. Anyone?

 

19 hours ago, VWatchie said:

When I bought my first Jacot lathe I had no idea there was such a thing as a runner for centre wheels. So, I got myself a second Jacot, a Steiner, including the runner for centre wheels and now I really wouldn't want to be without it. My advice would be to keep looking!

These bigger sets seem to be much more rare. I can find plenty of small sets at good prices, but very few bigger ones. I wonder therefore: what's the range of sizes of center wheel pivots in WRIST WATCHES? I never work on pocket watches. I wonder if the runners up to 29/30 are sufficient there.

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

These bigger sets seem to be much more rare. I can find plenty of small sets at good prices, but very few bigger ones. I wonder therefore: what's the range of sizes of center wheel pivots in WRIST WATCHES? I never work on pocket watches. I wonder if the runners up to 29/30 are sufficient there.

No, runners up to 29/30 would not be sufficient for centre wheel pivots.

The beds in the centre wheel runner of my Steiner range from 0.38 to 0.76 millimetres. Even so, there are centre wheel pivots with a larger diameter even in normal watch-size movements although not that common.

One thing that took me a while to figure out when burnishing centre wheel pivots in particular is that you absolutely need to leave a small space between the pivot shoulder and the end of the runner. If you don't, the wheel tends to bind and won't rotate or rotate sufficiently. What happens then is that the "snake teeth" dislocate the wheel from the bed in the runner. When this happened to me in the beginning I thought I was somehow moving the burnisher in the wrong way. I guess you should always leave a small space between the pivot shoulder and the runner for all wheels, but I never had this problem with the smaller wheels, probably because the pivots of the other wheels are more or less pointed.

20 hours ago, Knebo said:

Another question in the meantime please... if the bow is missing, does this DIY "pass-holder" approach work just as well or even better? And would it work with these types of Steiner tools?

I couldn't really tell but my best guess is yes, it would work. If it doesn't you can make your own as shown here, or you can, like me, use an extendable key ring with the yoyo function. I've included a picture of the type I use (and some other tips) in this post.

BTW, in the linked post I wrote "Be careful not to measure small pivots (< 0.12mm) in a micrometre as it risks denting the pivot." However, I would say that if you use a JKA Feintaster micrometer the risk is minimal and you wouldn't really need to get a Seitz jewel gauge which can be very expensive and hard to find.

Edited October 10, 2023 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

Thanks @VWatchie, I see. Damn, that makes the whole search so much harder. Thanks for the other tips and links -- and for taking the time to even mark the particular moment in the Youtube link. Much appreciated.

 

I also found this good offer. Also Steiner. This one has all the runners and lanterns in perfect order (not posting here, but I got all the pics). But also missing the center wheel runner (and the bow -- but that seems less important).

I was wondering. The two Steiner tools (this one and the one I initially posted) have slightly different shapes of the main frame. And one has a wooden box, the other a black plastic/leather box. Is one of them an older/newer version? Any advantages/disadvantages? 

And lastly, the one here has some springs. What are they for?

UPDATE: after some research on NielsMachines.com, I found that the spring on the main frame is actually an integrated pulling system that replaces the bow. So that's cool. Almost looks like a perfect tool... just without the center wheel runner

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Knebo

[Knebo]

Further to the question of different "generations" of Steiner tools, the respective main frame shapes and boxes: here are the two styles of boxes and logos that I seem to find. Are any of them older/newer? More/less recommended?

1st style with "Pràzision - Précision - Precisione", cock logo and Jacot with letter "S" logo.

 

2nd style: wooden box with different Steiner logo.

 

[nickelsilver]

Wooden box is newer style tools, black box the older style. The newer style has the advantage that the alignment of the headstock runner can be adjusted if needed. It's generally not needed, but if it is, you can do it. On the older tools there's no way to adjust.

 

The internal spring drive is available for both models, and still supplied by Horia.

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

Damn, that makes the whole search so much harder.

Give it time and the perfect option will eventually surface. Yes, I know, it really sucks having to wait but waiting for the right tool to show up is very much a part of this interest unless you have unlimited resources. In case you do have unlimited resources, and I hope you and everyone else have, you can always place an order here  Or, in the meantime, get a Jacot in good condition for little money (even without the centre wheel runner) and then resell it once a better option surfaces. That's exactly what I did.

[nickelsilver]

12 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Give it time and the perfect option will eventually surface. Yes, I know, it really sucks having to wait but waiting for the right tool to show up is very much a part of this interest unless you have unlimited resources. In case you do have unlimited resources, and I hope you and everyone else have, you can always place an order here  Or, in the meantime, get a Jacot in good condition for little money (even without the centre wheel runner) and then resell it once a better option surfaces. That's exactly what I did.

I've owned at least a dozen maybe 20 over the years, upgrading until I had a nice "full set", then two full sets (I like having back up tools). So currently two full sets, and two little sets, those I keep in case I need or want to modify one for something special. The rest have been sold on or given away to younger watchmakers. I would certainly have been ahead money-wise had I waited and gotten a good full set in the beginning...