Chinese clone horia tool

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I use lever type tools (Favorite, Chatons SA, Horia) for everything, and I have several of the screw-type (micrometric) Horia tools. I just find it easier and faster for the way I work. I do push in lots of pins and tubes and such doing prototype work; I like being able to come down in contact with the lever then raise the micrometer stop to touch, then descend and push- I think there's more feel. But both tools are great. True that with a lever type tool you can ream and drill and such with the appropriate spindles too. I know many pros who couldn't live without the screw-type Horia tool; it's all a matter of preference.

 

But if you just want to get one, then a secondhand Seitz or Favorite is a good choice. I prefer the Favorite as it uses straight sided reamers held in a collet in their spindle, and a complete set will have several collets with sizes appropriate for holding drills. Seitz uses a taper fit to hold the reamers. Horia is like Favorite, with the collet holding spindle. If you have a Seitz the Horia spindle will fit if you want to have that too- the price is reasonable, but the Schaublin P4.5 collets are pretty pricy.

 

I also collect pushers and stumps, and often make them for special jobs as well. Pic is of the drawer for those (main workbench drawer). It's messy but I know where everything is!

 

 

Damn , i am so jealous. 

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Damn , i am so jealous. 

Do this professionally in Switzerland and "stuff" just accumulates. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Do this professionally in Switzerland and "stuff" just accumulates. 

Its just as well I'm very non professional and live in the UK as i can already seriously accumulate stuff. I have just aquired a Star brand lever pusher in good condition but has few pushers and anvils and wondered about the possibility of making some. I would want to save the horia clone for more delicate work thinking anything more than an adjusting a jewel's position could strain the threads over time and create slop in the micrometer. Where as the lever the pushing power comes from hand pressure so wouldnt develop any wear. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:15 AM, JohnR725 said:

ideally for horological tool purchasing they should be purchased over time when it's convenient to do so and you find an outstanding purchase price

On 5/20/2023 at 1:53 PM, VWatchie said:

I share the exact same experience. If you wait long enough (sometimes for as long as a few years) that perfect offer somehow magically appears.

That's exactly how I just ended up buying a vintage Seitz yesterday. Locally, good price, good condition, 98% complete set. The opportunity overruled the comparisons with other tools

I must say that I'm just blown away by the beauty of the tool. And adjusting in 0.01mm increments is so impressive. I'm just in awe. 

 

On 5/20/2023 at 2:21 PM, nickelsilver said:

I do push in lots of pins and tubes and such doing prototype work; I like being able to come down in contact with the lever then raise the micrometer stop to touch, then descend and push- I think there's more feel.

I hope with practice, one day, I can be like you  

 

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, Knebo said:

That's exactly how I just ended up buying a vintage Seitz yesterday. Locally, good price, good condition, 98% complete set. The opportunity overruled the comparisons with other tools

Congrats! 

17 hours ago, Knebo said:

I must say that I'm just blown away by the beauty of the tool. And adjusting in 0.01mm increments is so impressive. I'm just in awe. 

I had the exact same feeling when I bought my Seitz, also in very good condition. I remember I tried to imagine the length of 1/100mm looking at a ruler and was just like you in awe of the precision.

For the time being, I'm on the lookout for my second Jacot tool, this time a Steiner having a runner for centre wheels. Swiss quality tools are getting more and more expensive. I guess much as a result of repairing watches is getting more and more popular. No wonder the market for Chinese clones is growing.

[Knebo]

27 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Congrats! 

I had the exact same feeling when I bought my Seitz, also in very good condition. I remember I tried to imagine the length of 1/100mm looking at a ruler and was just like you in awe of the precision.

For the time being, I'm on the lookout for my second Jacot tool, this time a Steiner having a runner for centre wheels. Swiss quality tools are getting more and more expensive. I guess much as a result of repairing watches is getting more and more popular. No wonder the market for Chinese clones is growing.

Thank you!

I just searched for Jacot tool and learned about it through this thread (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/21856-jacot-tool/) and the amazing Youtube video by @jdrichard.

Again, what a beauty!

 

 

[jdrichard]

57 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thank you!

I just searched for Jacot tool and learned about it through this thread (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/21856-jacot-tool/) and the amazing Youtube video by @jdrichard.

Again, what a beauty!

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thank you!

I just searched for Jacot tool and learned about it through this thread (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/21856-jacot-tool/) and the amazing Youtube video by @jdrichard.

Again, what a beauty!

 

 

Hey, thanks

 

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can you give an idea of scale please JD.  I wondering if this is only part of the gauge.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 hours ago, Knebo said:

must say that I'm just blown away by the beauty of the tool. And adjusting in 0.01mm increments is so impressive. I'm just in awe. 

You maybe just need to get out more

[VWatchie]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:15 AM, JohnR725 said:

I've seen some outstanding purchase prices but you have to wait over time.

On 5/20/2023 at 1:53 PM, VWatchie said:

I share the exact same experience. If you wait long enough (sometimes for as long as a few years) that perfect offer somehow magically appears.

Well, "Speak of the Devil and he shall appear". As I mentioned (somewhere) I've been on the lookout for a Steiner Jacot tool in good condition having a runner for centre wheels. Well, the wait is over. This "Zapfenrollierstuhl STEINER hochglanz vernickelt Bestzustand" (Jacot Tool STEINER high-gloss nickel-plated excellent condition) popped up on German eBay (not found if you just search for "Jacot tool"), and I was, to my great surprise, the only bidder and got it for £165/€190/$204 

Usually, in this condition, they go for around $500, and there are "buy now listings" for $600-$700 and sometimes more.

[Neverenoughwatches]

44 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Well, "Speak of the Devil and he shall appear". As I mentioned (somewhere) I've been on the lookout for a Steiner Jacot tool in good condition having a runner for centre wheels. Well, the wait is over. This "Zapfenrollierstuhl STEINER hochglanz vernickelt Bestzustand" (Jacot Tool STEINER high-gloss nickel-plated excellent condition) popped up on German eBay (not found if you just search for "Jacot tool"), and I was, to my great surprise, the only bidder and got it for £165/€190/$204 

Usually, in this condition, they go for around $500, and there are "buy now listings" for $600-$700 and sometimes more.

Thats a great buy watchie. Do we know what this part is ? It isn't part of either of mine, I've not seen it in any jacot listed on ebay.

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do we know what this part is ? It isn't part of either of mine, I've not seen it in any jacot listed on ebay.

there is limited places where you can insert something like that in the tool it has to go somewhere. By the way what is the space for above the mystery part? Plus the end of the mystery part does it have a hole what do we find there?

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

there is limited places where you can insert something like that in the tool it has to go somewhere. By the way what is the space for above the mystery part? Plus the end of the mystery part does it have a hole what do we find there?

Hi John. It actually looks like it fits into a lathe runner for drilling or some other operation. I have a few similar for lathes with no holes in the ends and no idea what they are for yet.  Looking at the pictures i say it fits in the same position as the pulley carrier for rotating the balance wheel. The end is different though it doesn't seemed designed to support the balance staff and the pulley would be fitted too far away to engage with the balance wheel. So i guess not for polishing staff pivots. Can i have another clue please John ?

Edited May 27, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches
Added photo

[JohnR725]

at the link below you scroll down there is something that looks similar to your mystery school. No idea how to use it though with the added bonus if you go to the bergeon website apparently this tool appears to be a thing of the past very unhelpful

https://www.ofrei.com/page432.html

 

[nickelsilver]

The part circled in red is an additional headstock runner for the larger center pivots. It has a friction fit cap on one end (it's double ended). You can see the same friction fit cap on the one that's in the tool. Both runners have female cone centers to support the pivot. Tools without the center wheel runner (top right, double ended with support beds, no lanterns) will have only one headstock runner.

 

The space above it is for the tube that holds spare lantern discs, which in the photo is there and is open showing the spare discs.

Edited May 27, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

at the link below you scroll down there is something that looks similar to your mystery school. No idea how to use it though with the added bonus if you go to the bergeon website apparently this tool appears to be a thing of the past very unhelpful

https://www.ofrei.com/page432.html

 

The top picture jacot in the link has the same tool. Further down is a center wheel  broach but looks like it has a cutting surface. So i thought maybe a smoothing broach but the ones i have for a lathe are not tapered and the one in watchie's jacot box doesn't particularly look tapered.

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The part circled in red is an additional headstock runner for the larger center pivots. It has a friction fit cap on one end (it's double ended). You can see the same friction fit cap on the one that's in the tool. Both runners have female cone centers to support the pivot.

 

The space above it is for the tube that holds spare lantern discs, which in the photo is there and is open showing the spare discs.

Ah ok thanks Nicklesilver.  So not the same as the lathe runner inserts i have, they have no centers to support anything just a solid end. 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats a great buy watchie. Do we know what this part is ?

Indeed, thanks! 

I didn't, but now I'm pretty sure I get it thanks to @nickelsilver. Thanks! 

I did notice, however, that it was very similar to the headstock runner in the tool so I thought that it could be a spare that had been thrown in from a different set without the seller's knowledge.

Edited May 27, 2023 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This "Zapfenrollierstuhl STEINER hochglanz vernickelt Bestzustand" (Jacot Tool STEINER high-gloss nickel-plated excellent condition) popped up on German eBay (not found if you just search for "Jacot tool")

I forgot to mention it in my post, but when looking for tools I have learned that it can be profitable to note the names of tools in both English, French and German. Neither eBay nor chatGTP usually manages to translate tool names correctly and therefore it is easy to miss many listings which can be costly. My Jacot tool purchase is a good example of that.

I intend to compile a list of tool names in English, French, and German as I go, but it would probably be beneficial to include multiple languages such as Italian, Dutch, and Spanish too, but right now it just consists of the following:

English    Jacot Tool
French    Tour à Pivoter
German    Zapfenrollierstuhl

[Knebo]

On 5/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, VWatchie said:

German    Zapfenrollierstuhl

I am German, but this word made my laugh so hard  

 

By the way, I'm thoroughly enjoying my Seitz press. I haven't used it for any jewels, but for as many other applications as possible 

It gives me much pleasure

 

- putting the hairspring collet back on the balance staff safely and evenly:

- putting a mainspring into the barrel

- closing the barrel:

Edited June 1, 2023 by Knebo
typo

[nickelsilver]

Yes- I use my jewel press much more for other things than for jewel-pressing, and for many things that would normally be seen as tasks for the staking tool. It's a truly useful tool! And becomes more so if you can turn up various pushers and stumps on the lathe.

[StickDog]

May I weigh in on the Chinese "Horia" tool?  (My comments might apply generally to several other types of Chinese tools as well.)

First, I'm struck by the amount speculation here from folks who have never actually seen or used the tool in question:  the steel may not be good, fit and finish may be poor, durability and precision are suspect, etc.  I suggest people considering a purchase take such comments for the unfounded speculation that they are.

I have a Chinese "Horia" in hand, and I've been using it extensively over several weeks to practice installing friction jewels and adjusting end shakes. I was impressed with the general fit and finish of the tool as received but, as with many watchmaking tools it did benefit from a bit of tuning. 

I took a couple of hours to surface and polish each of the stumps and pushers in the set I received.  I just cucked the item in my 8mm lathe and pressed a piece of emery paper (first 220, then 600, finally 1,000 grit) against the working surface using the flat face of my tailstock runner. (You could do the same on a drill press if you lack a lathe.) I disassembled the pump pushers before doing this.  Then I cleaned everything in my ultrasonic, dried, lightly oiled, and put everything back together.

I also took the press apart. Cleaned it and lubricated the screw and the sleeve bearing with Fomblin grease.  This gave a nice silky feel to the screw advance.

All this took me perhaps 3 or 4 hours.  Would the Swiss tool have required similar?  Used, I'm sure it would have.  New?  I don't know.

Anyway, having completed this tune-up the tool has performed flawlessly.  As to the fact the pushers are flat rather than concave I'd say, first, that in my set of 24 of pushers, about a third of them are so very small in diameter that no meaningful "convexing" seems even remotely possible.  As to the rest, after dressing as described I'm confident the faces are flat, or very close to it.  In any event, they have performed just fine and I've yet to break a jewel.  The press has been accurate: as noted elsewhere, and as with the Swiss tool, you generally must advance the screw 1/100mm past your target depth to account for accumulated lash in the system.

Now's discuss the price.  I paid $160 US, delivered, for the press and a full set of 24 each, stumps and pushers.  For the equivalent Swiss tool, new, US suppliers were asking about $700 for the press and $1,800 for the stumps and pushers.  So I paid about 6.5% of the price of the Swiss tool.

Let's get some perspective here.  What's the worst that's going to happen if the Chinese model underperforms in some way?  You break a $6 friction jewel? I can run that risk.  Inferior steel?  Well how would anyone know without actual metallurgic testing, but what result?  It wears out faster?  Given that I can buy 10 Chinese tools for less than the price of the Swiss one, vague speculative concern about long-term durability doesn't hold much weight.

To me the question is not so much weather the Chinese tool is a good value (I assure you, it's a fabulous value) but why on earth anyone would put up with the usurious prices demanded by Swiss manufacturers.  The answer used to be that there was no alternative, but now there are some.

By the way, I too am left wondering if the Swiss and Chinese tools perhaps come out of the same factory in China. My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that to be labeled "Swiss Made" 60% of the value must originate in Switzerland.  Given how inexpensively the Chinese can sell this tool at retail, it seems the Swiss could buy these wholesale, spend a bit of expensive Swiss labor "convexing" the largest pushers and perhaps painting and packaging the press and claim that 60% of the (ill-defined) "value" originated in Switzerland.  But I suppose we'll never know . . .

Someday I'll get the Chinese and Swiss models side-by-side and report further.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, StickDog said:

All this took me perhaps 3 or 4 hours.  Would the Swiss tool have required similar?  Used, I'm sure it would have.  New?  I don't know.

Mine is a used Swiss version and it seems to function perfectly. So basically it's a very very nicely made tool that seems to last almost forever. The one at work which is also used came from a school and it's only problem is sometimes the pushers don't like to stay in place but otherwise the tools seem to last forever.

4 hours ago, StickDog said:

Now's discuss the price.  I paid $160 US, delivered, for the press and a full set of 24 each, stumps and pushers.  For the equivalent Swiss tool, new, US suppliers were asking about $700 for the press and $1,800 for the stumps and pushers.  So I paid about 6.5% of the price of the Swiss tool

Interesting about the price mine was used as I said, the person selling it didn't really know what it was and I think I paid about the same price as you Chinese version. But yes you're right unfortunately Swiss tools are astronomically expensive. Then the unfortunate thing about Swiss tool prices are they keep going up and up with the quality going down. At least for some of the stuff if you look at newer versions versus older versions they don't seem to quite as nice. With considerable price difference.

4 hours ago, StickDog said:

To me the question is not so much weather the Chinese tool is a good value (I assure you, it's a fabulous value) but why on earth anyone would put up with the usurious prices demanded by Swiss manufacturers.  The answer used to be that there was no alternative, but now there are some.

You need to actually expand that a little bit why would people purchase new tools when they could purchase used tools. For instance a lot of the tools that I have are used tools purchased over the years and I am extremely happy with them. Basically a lot of the tools maybe weren't made to last forever but they're basically going to last forever.

Then we do have an interesting problem? Why would people insist upon purchasing brand-new extremely expenses Swiss tools when there is better alternatives either used or Chinese or possibly something else.

Lovely acquaintances I have ordered one of the staking sets from cousins it still isn't in stock. Apparently the ones that did come in that instantly disappeared were missing the punches. So I guess they're waiting for the rest of them to show up from somewhere on the planet. So even though I tried to explain that the vintage is perfectly fine his obsession was only to purchase the brand-new in the box. There is some sort of psychological thing that brand-new in the box from the Swiss is what you must do or else and is to be quite honest beyond our comprehension and endeavor going to reach those people in total waste of time let them by their silly expensive tools and waste all their money.

Like the staking set the local college requires the students to purchase toolset a rather expensive set. The staking set is now so expensive that the school offsets part of the cost and requires the student to sign a note if they leave before the completion of the school the staking set goes back to the school. But from the students I've heard that have the staking set they have to refinish the punches because the finish sucks. This means I know a couple of students who would like to acquire a vintage set and I believe one of did finally get a vintage set something it has decent that actually works out-of-the-box even if it's a vintage.

4 hours ago, StickDog said:

break a $6 friction jewel?

Oh minor clarification here somewhere else in the group were discussing where those six dollar jewels are going away. One of the material houses in the US are selling about a closeout price because they are being closed out. Cousins has a lot of them listed as discontinued so breaking a jewel with a inferior tool might not be in your best interest. But even out of the box I don't think the tool is that inferior but just a warning jewels appear to be disappearing.

4 hours ago, StickDog said:

By the way, I too am left wondering if the Swiss and Chinese tools perhaps come out of the same factory in China. My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that to be labeled "Swiss Made" 60% of the value must originate in Switzerland.  Given how inexpensively the Chinese can sell this tool at retail, it seems the Swiss could buy these wholesale, spend a bit of expensive Swiss labor "convexing" the largest pushers and perhaps painting and packaging the press and claim that 60% of the (ill-defined) "value" originated in Switzerland.  But I suppose we'll never know . . .

I'm not sure if these 60% rule applies to tools as I think it's a watch thing. If you look at the companies that sell tools in Switzerland such as bergeon Do they actually make all the tools they sell themselves? When I was going to school in Switzerland quite a while ago basically when we visited they purchased everything they were doing no manufacturing themselves. Which is why the stuff that they sell could have been sold by other people. But if you look on their website now they appear to acquired brands of stuff so doubted the sole supplier of those things. Then if you look at the link below they indicate that their manufacturing more and more and more their stuff which to certain drift find interesting it probably suggests that the number of people making tools to sell is shrinking because obviously the demand of people needing tools has decreased which unfortunately has the rippling effect of driving the price of stuff up considerably

https://www.bergeon.swiss/company/index

I do find it interesting problem with purchasing Chinese stuff in that depending upon what it is or whose cloning at in other words the Chinese clone their own stuff that their cloning from other people you can end up with a vast quality difference of seemingly identical stuff sometimes. But still you get some really excellent inexpensive products out of China

 

[Waggy]

Interesting discussion, reading between the lines there seems to be a general assumption that Chinese = poor quality, but seeing that a significant percentage of the "quality" equipment we consume is manufactured in China, this must call into question this assumption - how can people reconcile the fact that they may well be reading this very rant on their flagship quality phones... made is China? Conversely, there seems to be an assumption that Swiss made = quality, again is this really the case as there is a reasonable chance that some manufacturing probably takes place in China or other similar locations.

What we know for sure is that the Swiss made equipment (and we all know who we are talking about) is very expensive compared to its Chinese of Indian counterpart, and I just cannot allow myself to be exploited in such a way. The Swiss manufacturers are trading on the Swiss brand and associated/assumed quality, but as stated above and in other posts on this thread, the actual value that this quality differential presents is questionable in real terms. Yes it is high quality, but is the bump in quality actually worth the huge premium????

My strategy is to first look at Chinese clones of the equipment I am looking for, simple equipment eg spring bar tool is a bit of a no-brainer, but for more complex equipment one should dig a bit deeper. A quick look at pictures is often enough to weed out the poor clones, and reading reviews by actual users can increase confidence further. I did this when I purchased my Chinese Horia tool, and like the users above have had a great experience made all the better by the feeling I wasn't paying a 10x mark up for a "Swiss Made" sticker. Only if there is absolutely no option would I buy the Swiss versions, and the experience is usually marred by the feeling that I am supporting this exploitation of watchmakers (especially the nonprofessional hobbyists) and someone in an office somewhere is laughing at us for paying well over the odds for equipment they are buying/assembling/manufacturing at a tiny fraction of what I have just played for it, talk about spinning straw into gold.

My philosophy is that I give the cloned version a try, and if it's no good then, and there are no other realistic options, I take the plunge and get the Swiss version. Worst case is that I pay for both tools, in the example above I end up paying $1960 instead of $1800, but the best case is that I can save $1640..... I'd be crazy not to take that gamble and in addition get that warm and fuzzy feeling that I hadn't allowed myself to be screwed over in the process.

Sorry for the long rant!

[clockboy]

The problem we (Amateurs/hobbyists) have is our volume of repairs/ servicing is low compared to a full time pro. As a result replacing a jewel is not a common repair. So IMO spending a large sum of money on a tool that might be used maybe once a year is a waste. When I have had to change a jewel I have used my very old Seitz jeweling tool. It works just fine using care. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, clockboy said:

The problem we (Amateurs/hobbyists) have is our volume of repairs/ servicing is low compared to a full time pro. As a result replacing a jewel is not a common repair. So IMO spending a large sum of money on a tool that might be used maybe once a year is a waste. When I have had to change a jewel I have used my very old Seitz jeweling tool. It works just fine using care. 

the interesting problem is if you're replacing a jewel you're probably going to need both tools. The horia is an outstanding tool for pushing things but if you're replacing a jewel often times the replacement is of different size than the original. then you're going to need a Seitz tool or the equivalent to open up the hole so you can put the jewel in. That makes things even more expensive you may require both tools.

then my suspicion is that the horia doesn't really get much use for replacing jewels. Probably the number one use would be for moving jewels. For which I feel very sad working on American pocket watches the jewels are what they are they don't move typically. So I could totally care less about end shake or side shake other than on the balance. But for everyone else in the world is quite an obsession and that's probably the number one use of this tool adjusting jewels for a clearance issues either real or imaginary. for instance in the discussion below this tool is perfect for adjusting things like this.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/23280-can-end-shake-and-or-side-shake-ever-be-too-small

 

[JohnR725]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:33 AM, StickDog said:

(My comments might apply generally to several other types of Chinese tools as well.)

Thinking about other tools here's an example Of another Chinese tool. In Seattle we have a school sponsored by Rolex teaching professional watchmaking and one of the students who had met had one of these before and one of the current ones I know it purchased one and as we're talking about Chinese tools this is a perfect example. Not something I would ever use but apparently the students like it and this is what was done to it notice it has a familiar sound doesn't it?

All things considered, it worked very very well outside of the box but I did service the entire thing. Disassembled it, cleaned off all the manufacturing oil, polished the pivoting points and then lubricated everything. It now works phenomenally. 

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800157901825.html?spm=a2g0n.order_detail.order_detail_item.3.2e12f19cloFdqx&gatewayAdapt=Msite2Pc

I do curiosity to see what it cost from the Swiss here's what cousins is selling it for. Yes it does appear to be quite a difference in price.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/hand-fitting-multi-press-watch-bergeon-swiss?code=H40483