Can't get the fork to get power

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

The 6349 was already disassembled to begin with. I have the PDF of both 6309 and 6349 specs and identified the differences.

I installed the 3rd and escape wheel of the 6349 on the 6349 plates. If I said otherwise, I'm sorry, it was a mistake. The train looks to be working well, it has power. It's just something between the escape and the pallet fork. 

Yes, I have 2 pallet forks and 2 pallet bridges. I already installed both, but no luck.

 

Thanks for your reply.

So we need to see those pallet forks BF, the pivots in particular. 

[BFernandes]

I took the bridge and pallet off, took some pictures of the jeweled pivot hole on both sides of the plate and made a video to show the power going through the train.

I'm not allowed to upload the video, so I put it here.

 

Thanks

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by BFernandes

[RichardHarris123]

Looks broken to me. 

[watchweasol]

Hi looking at the picture of the pallet it’s not possible to discern the fullness of the pivot.  One way is to fit just the pallet and it’s cock and check that bothe ends are in their respective jewels and seating correctly as we seem to be going round in  circles.

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

I took the bridge and pallet off, took some pictures of the jeweled pivot hole on both sides of the plate and made a video to show the power going through the train.

I'm not allowed to upload the video, so I put it here.

 

Thanks

 

Looks like the bottom pivot has hightailed it.

22 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

I took the bridge and pallet off, took some pictures of the jeweled pivot hole on both sides of the plate and made a video to show the power going through the train.

I'm not allowed to upload the video, so I put it here.

 

Thanks

 

Can you improve the clarity of the photo, or spin the fork over and take another photo, ww is right we can't tell for sure if the pivot is there . Once thats been established you can move on. You have two forks i remember so we need to see clearly all 4 of the pivots.

[Nucejoe]

Pivot broken.

The pivots on both sides do generally have the same size, be it on the fork/balance staff/ other arbours, so if you see a pivot on one side there should be a similar looking one on the other side.

You can see exceptions to this, on  old jewelless watches where only one side got pivot. 

[BFernandes]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Looks like the bottom pivot has hightailed it.

Can you improve the clarity of the photo, or spin the fork over and take another photo, ww is right we can't tell for sure if the pivot is there . Once thats been established you can move on. You have two forks i remember so we need to see clearly all 4 of the pivots.

The first 3 photos are from the spare pallet. The last 3 are from the current installed pallet.

Thanks.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

The first 3 photos are from the spare pallet. The last 3 are from the current installed pallet.

Thanks.

 

Thank you for the clearer photos, if you think all the pivots are there then its time to see why the pallet fork is not staying seated between the pallet pivot jewels. I would suggest mounting up the pallet fork without the balance or escape wheel and then check for how much endshake you have between the jewels. 

[BFernandes]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Pivot broken.

The pivots on both sides do generally have the same size, be it on the fork/balance staff/ other arbours, so if you see a pivot on one side there should be a similar looking one on the other side.

You can see exceptions to this, on  old jewelless watches where only one side got pivot. 

According to my research, the pallet fork is Seiko part 301611 and by googling some images, it has a short pivot and a long pivot.

[watchweasol]

Right having proved the pivots  are as intended. One short one long and both intact, remove every thing from the plate and install only the pallet and the bridge and re check the fitting,  both end shake and side shake,  and if it still wobbles when fitted.  Close ups of the fitted position from top bottom and side.

[Nucejoe]

 Building a watch  isn't just putting the parts in place and tightening the screws. We should  check the functioning of each part during disassembly & re-assembly.

 Bunch of forks are brought to the stage here, non work, there must be a reason why your fork delivers no power. 

 

 

 

[rehajm]

So yas, now that it appears you have two forks with two asymmetric but maybe correct pivots, back to this pic where it looks like the fork may not seated properly, hence the call for jewel inspection and an examination of the fork in place by itself, a check of end shake then division, then with the escape wheel back in place and do the pallet jewels and escape wheel play nice?

…and then we’ve been focusing on the pallet fork but from this picture I can’t see a pivot for the escape wheel seated in the upper jewel, so even though you say the train has good power without the fork perhaps the escape wheel isn’t seated correctly or an issue with endshake or division or an issue with the escape wheel jewels and is there a cap jewel for the escape wheel shock setting upper and lower and does that raise/lower the escape wheel so it plays nice with the pallet fork? ...and yes I see from the photos you have cap jewels so without the cap jewels are the escape wheel pivots seated properly in their respective pivot holes and sitting neither too high or low?

Edited October 2, 2023 by rehajm

[Bigwooly]

I am very new to all of this watch making stuff however with the issues I'm seeing here... Is it as simple as you have the pallet fork install upside down in this movement?   If the escape wheel is, as it appears to be, passing under the fork in the last pictures you provided and in the earlier ones it's looking like it's almost touching the pallet fork bridge.  

Since there is a short and a long pivot....

also if this is a dumb suggestion just ignore me.  I'm only getting started.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Bigwooly

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Bigwooly said:

I am very new to all of this watch making stuff however with the issues I'm seeing here... Is it as simple as you have the pallet fork install upside down in this movement?   If the escape wheel is, as it appears to be, passing under the fork in the last pictures you provided and in the earlier ones it's looking like it's almost touching the pallet fork bridge.  

Since there is a short and a long pivot....

also if this is a dumb suggestion just ignore me.  I'm only getting started.

 

No question or suggestion is dumb BW, a picture from the side which we haven't had yet would answer that.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Bigwooly said:

. Is it as simple as you have the pallet fork install upside down in this movement?   

 Fork horn and guard pin show the fork  luckily installed right side up, installing it upside down is impossible 

Fork appear to be touching its bridge, bridge might pressing on the fork thus might have bent the pivot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nucejoe

[NathanM]

Perhaps the shellac has loosened and allowed the pallet fork jewels to be pushed back into the setting?

[Endeavor]

Wonder why it isn't working?

Even though it is said that parts are interchangeable, doesn't always mean that they are.

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Wonder why it isn't working?

Even though it is said that parts are interchangeable, doesn't always mean that they are.

The pallet stones look to be riding ABOVE the escape wheel, the interaction between the two doesn't seem right. It's time we had a clear picture from the side, strip everything back leaving just the pallet fork and eacape wheel installed. 

35 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Wonder why it isn't working?

Even though it is said that parts are interchangeable, doesn't always mean that they are.

My blind uncle told me dont believe anything until you see it with you own eyes. Hence he didn't trust anything 

[watchweasol]

Hi  NEW is on the right track, given the last picture where the pallet is riding over the escape wheel suggests that the pallets are not fitttet to the arbour correctly and need re seating on to the hub to bring them inline. But looking at the pictures of the pallets in the rweezers it looks to be ok. I wonder if the staff has been replaced and it was put on upside down.  I would be inclined at this time just to fit the pallet and the escape wheel to the plate and check out the alignment between the pallets and the wheel, and a picture from the side so we can all see how it lies because somthing is definitely out of line.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The pallet stones look to be riding ABOVE the escape wheel, the interaction between the two doesn't seem right. It's time we had a clear picture from the side, strip everything back leaving just the pallet fork and eacape wheel installed. 

It could be an optical illusion? Probably just the camera reflection nothing to worry about here

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Even though it is said that parts are interchangeable, doesn't always mean that they are.

On American pocket watches I always frown on mixing and matching because when it came to the escapement the watches were adjusted with the components in the watch at the a mix-and-match it will be a nightmare. But this is a modern Seiko we can mix and match can't we?

Now let's look at the basics that seem to be forgot pallet forks have to be in alignment like this image shows otherwise?

 

 

Isn't this picture interesting yes the pallet stone appears to be out of alignment with the escape wheel but notice I circled something it appears to be that pallet fork might be a little high as it's touching the bridge?

 

 

Let's look at the images the two separate pallet forks and who knows which one is in the watch but I'm guessing the second one.

In the upper image you can see the pivot and a bit of the arbor sticking up. In the image down below we just have a pivot and well at least give a pivot it's not like we really need clearance here is it?

Let's look at something Seiko has touted the lubrication guide for different watch. This is where it brings together all the concepts of escape wheel in the pallet fork have to be in alignment and you need to have some clearance between the fork and its bridge exactly like the image here shows versus the pictures were seeing in this discussion

That's from a 7005 I believe they'll be a little different clearances but the concepts are all the same

now let's go back to the first page and get a few things

On 9/27/2023 at 3:51 AM, BFernandes said:

Seiko 6349A. I have all the pieces I need. Most of them come from a donor movement, the 6309

Tech sheets are nice parts list are nice and websites are nice reading cross reference components like this one

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_6349A

So basically click on the components and see what it cross-references to. It's hard to tell with Seiko it almost looks like you're stuck with whatever you have because normally on modern Swiss watches the arbor is friction in and can be moved around. Oh and thinking about how this one doesn't appear to be in alignment it also has to align with the roller table on the balance wheel.

Now let's swipe an image off eBay they claim it's the right pallet fork and see how it looks? Definitely looks better looks like more of the arbors sticking up like it's supposed to be definitely give you better clearance.

Now before I leave the home page at least you gave us pictures. My favorite is for newbies to describe a situation and not give us a picture because we should instantaneously know what they're talking about. Which is why a lot of times I joke about I should get a crystal ball and learn how to diagnose watches on discussion groups. But here we got a picture right at the very beginning and? Interesting I'm sure it's an optical illusion again but it definitely looks like that fork is way too high and rubbing on the bridge which is only a secondary problem to everything else. And just think it was the very first picture?

 

 

[BFernandes]

Thank you all for your kind messages of support helping me heading in the right direction.

I'm out of town some days and won't be able to disassemble the pieces and assemble only the escape and pallet as suggest, but I'll do that soon and get back with photos.

 

Thank you all for your wonderful advices.

[BFernandes]

Hi gents,

I've been out of town in business trip, so before I left, I took the watch to a local watch maker, he took the pallet fork and the balance wheel and in under 1 minute the movement was ticking . He really made it look easy. I don't know how he did it, but he did.

Good news then. The movement has all the pieces it needs to work. I left the store so he could build the remaining parts and complete the watch, since I was in a hurry and had to leave town. He told me he had quite a few services in hands, so it could take a while. I said no problem, I'm not in a hurry to get it back.

 

Thanks all for the kind input.