Can't get the fork to get power

[BFernandes]

Hi all.

This is my first time I disassembled and assembled a movement.

My project consists on building a Seiko 6349A. I have all the pieces I need. Most of them come from a donor movement, the 6309 which is running and most of its pieces are compatible. The ones that aren't I have them from the 6349.

So, the 6309 is working, so I disassembled it.

I started assembling the 6349, everything was OK. I managed to install most of the pieces, until the train bridge. I wound the movement and it worked. It "hisses" for quite a while and all the wheels rotate well and fast.

So, I picked up the fork and installed it. I put its bridge, wound the movement a bit and tried the peg wood trick on the fork to see if it "snaps". No, doesn't happen. It moves if I push it with the peg wood, but it seems it's not getting any power at all. Of course I won't bother to install the balance until I fix this.

All these pieces were working under the 6309, so I assume they're OK.

What do you gents think?

Thanks

 

[RichardHarris123]

The exit jewel looks very deep into the escapement.  To much lock?

[Waggy]

You may want to check out the end-shake on the pallet fork, switching parts, even from compatible movements can result in bridges pinching wheels and in this case (perhaps) the pallet fork. Another option is that the jewel in the pallet bridge is damaged (cracked) or maybe the pinion of the fork itself is damaged (bent, sheared, corrosion etc...) such damage may also prevent the free movement of the pallet fork.

To check the end shake, use an oiler to carefully see if the pallet fork can move up and down (not side to side) between the two jewels, there should be a little bit of free movement up and down which is known as end shake. If there is movement then you can scratch this off your list of possible culprits, if there is no or very little movement then the bridge may be restricting (pinching) the pallet fork and you may need to move a jewel to allow sufficient end shake.

I just noticed on your photo that I do not see the pinion of the pallet fork poking through the jewel, usually you can just see it poking through the hole in the jewel - maybe this is a trick of the light in your photo or some other camera trickery? However, this would lead me to think that there may be a problem with the pallet fork pinions, perhaps one or both is sheared off or otherwise damaged?

@RichardHarris123 snap!

[rehajm]

Can we hav a better picture of the pallet jewels and their interaction with the escape wheel?

The lads above have you on the right track but to back up - you wound it up a bit but is it sufficient to get things moving? The seikos are low amplitude and sometimes they need more incentive…

[Waggy]

Just took a closer look, and it looks like the pinion is not through the jewel at all, if this is the case then the pallet fork may be completely pinched between the main plate and the pallet bridge, IF this is the case you will be VERY lucky if this has not fatally damaged your pallet fork! Hopefully this is a camera trick and not the reality.

[rehajm]

Ya- its a strange picture- I see a toothed wheel where the fork pivot should be…and no pivot at all through the jewel

Edited September 27, 2023 by rehajm

[watchweasol]

Hi I would be inclined to re check Waggys comments, although parts come from the same family they also maybe slightly different.

firstly remove the pallet anD check the pivots are ok. If so re fit and try again if you get the same result remove the drive train fit the pallet ang the balance only   A small puff of air should set the balance swinging and the pallet moving for a few seconds if not remove the pallet and re check end shake and side shake as that looks like where the problem is.

Check all the wheels are in their correct location as there is no sign of the escape wheel

After further scrutiny I can just see it. A better picture of the escapement would help

[rehajm]

..a quick check suggests the pallet forks are different for the two movements. Try the other one?

Generally you can get in much trouble mixing parts from different movements- and sometimes identical movements…

Edited September 27, 2023 by rehajm

[BFernandes]

Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.

 

Here are some photos, as requested

 

Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.

 

Here are some photos, as requested

 

[watchweasol]

Hi. Are the pallet pivots ok. Have you a side in view of the pallets so as to determine they are good. They look it but just for confirmation;.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, BFernandes said:

Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.

 

Here are some photos, as requested

 

Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.

 

Here are some photos, as requested

 

Do you have decent power coming through the train without the fork in ?

[BFernandes]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you have decent power coming through the train without the fork in ?

Yes, I wind the movement and it goes "hissing" and rotates pretty fast.

The movement was working perfectly on the donor 6309 movement. I wound it last week and it kept ticking for over 24  hours.

I took the pallet off and installed back a couple of times and now it feels not "stuck", but idle as if there was no power, but it has indeed. Once I take it off, the movement unwinds right away.

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

Yes, I wind the movement and it goes "hissing" and rotates pretty fast.

The movement was working perfectly on the donor 6309 movement. I wound it last week and it kept ticking for over 24  hours.

I took the pallet off and installed back a couple of times and now it feels not "stuck", but idle as if there was no power, but it has indeed. Once I take it off, the movement unwinds right away.

If you definitely have all the power coming through and a good indication of that is to see the escape wheel reverse for a second or two at the end ( it doesn't always so its not a bad sign if it doesn't,  just good if it does ) . So then something is not right around the pallet pivots, or the pallet stones are not  locking correctly with the escape wheel. I would be checking the pallet  on its own with no escape wheel or balance installed  to see how free it is and then with the balance installed .

Edited September 27, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

 They look it but just for confirmation;.

I see no upper pivot anywhere close to the fork arbour , must be my cheap lunch today.

[BFernandes]

21 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. Are the pallet pivots ok. Have you a side in view of the pallets so as to determine they are good. They look it but just for confirmation;.

I really don't know, but I suspect they aren't. I have 2, they're the same piece, 1 from 6309 and other from 6349 according to the manuals. They look identical in the micro.

But something's happening during the pallet fork or pallet bridge installation. As you can see in the image below, it appears the pallet fork comes off completely of its position and is now overlapping one teeth of the escape wheel. It will never engage with it properly...

Oh my Lord, this is a nightmare...

[RichardHarris123]

Is the exit jewel loose? 

[BFernandes]

50 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Is the exit jewel loose? 

No, it's in its place.

I suspect the fork just can't find its place. Whenever I put it in the jeweled hole, it just wobbles so much that I have to have a great amount of luck for it to stay in place when I place the bridge above it.

I notice that when I move the fork with a peg wood, it doesn't make the escape wheel rotating to the next teeth (just like my avatar shows).

Edited September 28, 2023 by BFernandes

[RichardHarris123]

If it wobbling so much then either the bottom pivot is broken or the pivot is too small for the hole in the jewel.

[Malocchio]

Did you use 6309 escape/3rd wheel with 6349 mainplate and train bridge? You shouldn't because they are different, the pivots are different shape and length. Just checking.

[watchweasol]

Hi if the pallet is wobbling when fitted. Either one or the other pivot is broken off or there is a loose jewel.it should have minimum up/ down   (End shake).  Or left / right. ( side shake).

[Marc]

It looks to me like you haven't got the pallet fork lower pivot located in is jewel hole.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, BFernandes said:

I really don't know, but I suspect they aren't. I have 2, they're the same piece, 1 from 6309 and other from 6349 according to the manuals. They look identical in the micro.

But something's happening during the pallet fork or pallet bridge installation. As you can see in the image below, it appears the pallet fork comes off completely of its position and is now overlapping one teeth of the escape wheel. It will never engage with it properly...

Oh my Lord, this is a nightmare...

Matey, i think you just need to take a close picture of each of the pallet fork pivots for everyone to have a look. We all just guessing here, lets rule something out and then move on. 

[BFernandes]

20 hours ago, Malocchio said:

Did you use 6309 escape/3rd wheel with 6349 mainplate and train bridge? You shouldn't because they are different, the pivots are different shape and length. Just checking.

Hi.

No, they are distinct. I have the escape and 3rd wheel installed in the 6349 plates.

 

I'll try to post some photos of the fork.

 

Thanks all for your patience.

[rehajm]

32 minutes ago, BFernandes said:

Hi.

No, they are distinct. I have the escape and 3rd wheel installed in the 6349 plates.

 

I'll try to post some photos of the fork.

 

Thanks all for your patience.

I'm sorry this is a persistent issue...I keep going back to all the switching of parts. You say you had a functioning 6309, so I guess the 6349 was not working? Did you diagnose why it was not working?

...and you installed the 6309 escape and third wheel into the 6349 because you say 'Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.'  Why?

...and we all keep going back to the look of the pallet fork.  According to your data you should have two pallet forks with the same part number? Yes? Did you try the other pallet fork in the movement? Why not or what happened when you did?

Edited September 29, 2023 by rehajm

[BFernandes]

3 hours ago, rehajm said:

I'm sorry this is a persistent issue...I keep going back to all the switching of parts. You say you had a functioning 6309, so I guess the 6349 was not working? Did you diagnose why it was not working?

...and you installed the 6309 escape and third wheel into the 6349 because you say 'Only the plates, the 3rd wheel and escape wheel are distinct according to the manuals.'  Why?

...and we all keep going back to the look of the pallet fork.  According to your data you should have two pallet forks with the same part number? Yes? Did you try the other pallet fork in the movement? Why not or what happened when you did?

The 6349 was already disassembled to begin with. I have the PDF of both 6309 and 6349 specs and identified the differences.

I installed the 3rd and escape wheel of the 6349 on the 6349 plates. If I said otherwise, I'm sorry, it was a mistake. The train looks to be working well, it has power. It's just something between the escape and the pallet fork. 

Yes, I have 2 pallet forks and 2 pallet bridges. I already installed both, but no luck.

 

Thanks for your reply.