How to search for a watch to buy on eBay to practice on ...help needed please

[dazzystar]

Hi All,

I'm sure I'm not the only person new to the hobby going through this but every time I do a search for a movement to 'play' with on eBay I'm afraid the seller is trying to flog something that can't be serviced or repaired easily. What are the things to look for or the pitfalls in listings to avoid?

Cheers

Daz

[SpringMangler]

I had good luck with Rotary watches on eBay. They tend to have AS or ETA movements and I've picked up a couple with ETA 2824 for which the parts are readily available. There was a bit of discussion on this the other day and the consensus was that if the pics don't show the movement then don't buy.

The other option is to buy a new movement from Cousins. There are a number of Chinese movements available for around £40 inc VAT that are ETA clones. Yes, the quality might not be the same, but the movement is new and working (otherwise return it), which is more than can be said for a lot of eBay junk.

[dazzystar]

Thanks. Thing is, if I wasn't into tinkering / watch repair and simply had a watch to sell on eBay I wouldn't take a pic of the movement either. I'd have no clue or the tools to remove the back.

[SpringMangler]

6 minutes ago, dazzystar said:

Thanks. Thing is, if I wasn't into tinkering / watch repair and simply had a watch to sell on eBay I wouldn't take a pic of the movement either. I'd have no clue or the tools to remove the back.

Pictures don't show everything, as I've found out to my cost, but just being able to identify the movement is a good start. Certain movements are easier to get parts for. 

I've bought some real dogs on eBay, with glued on dials, drenched in oil, hairsprings like spaghetti and the rest. That's why a lot of people suggest getting a new movement to practice on. At least you're starting with a working movement, new mainspring etc. 

You can get lucky on eBay - I picked up a Zodiac 72b described as having a broken balance the other week. The balance is mint as is everything else on the movement, it was just overbanked. However this is the exception on eBay. 

[dazzystar]

Is there a good book I can get which will help me identify a good brand / movement?

[SpringMangler]

Hopefully people will chip in, but the Seagull TY3600 is a clone of the Swiss 6497 movement, which is a pocket watch movement. It's larger that a wristwatch movement so easier to work on and is well priced at £37.50 plus VAT. Here's the link to the Cousins site  and it's the 3rd from bottom. 

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/3-hands-seagull

[AlecMac]

Hi, 

If you're starting out and looking for movements to practice on, job lots of uncased moments isn't bad way to go. I found having a bone pile to work through of "no consequence" movements, freed me up to get stuck in and make my mistakes.

When it comes to looking for keepers on eBay; 

If a seller sells lots of watches, and has one up without a picture of the movement, run away, it's probably not even the right movement for the watch. But if they're not a watch selling specialist and the price is right could be worth a punt, but factor in a 50% failure rate

Use Ranfft and  http://www.julesborel.com to search out other incarnations of movements your interested in.

I've found eBay stores of medium sized charities (regional not national) a good place to search for watches. They'll often not put to much effort into the description with means fewer bidders, the watches are often donations that haven't been filtered through dealers and watchmakers, and therefore on there 12th repair attempt and  they're not out to scam you. 

All the best

 

[SpringMangler]

As I mentioned in another post, we're starting to see quite a few 'Mumbai specials' being sold by UK sellers. It appears that people have bought them from India, opened them up and though 'sod that' and put them up for sale. Lot's of Oris, Fortis, Favre-Leuba and Seiko that are real bodge jobs.

In fact, I'm crossing my fingers that one arriving tomorrow doesn't fall into the above category but there are lots of new spares available at a reasonable price.

Edited August 24, 2023 by SpringMangler

[eccentric59]

In the beginning you don't have to be so careful, unless you are looking for specifics. There are a good many Seiko 5's and Russian Raketa, Poljot or Vostok fixer uppers to be had for less than a few cups of Starbucks coffee. The first few are for practice and I wouldn't expect a vintage restoration project. You'll be learning the basics like how much force is applied to snap off a screw head, where the most delicate parts of the movement are most vulnerable to a slipping screwdriver, how hard you have to squeeze to ping the smallest screw into the the heater vent and how long you are willing crawl on your hands and knees with a flashlight and magnet looking for parts.

I've found limiting by brand or features and then sorting by the "ending soonest" will find a few gems among the garbage, but it's not an everyday thing either.

[spectre6000]

Check out the 404 club thread. Can't guarantee that a given watch is recoverable, but for the price of a cup of fancy coffee (plus shipping usually), it's hard to go wrong. If you're a bit picky, you can improve your odds. I tend to limit myself to watches with fully stainless steel cases and fully jeweled movements that don't look like they're full of rust.

[Galilea]

6 hours ago, dazzystar said:

Hi All,

I'm sure I'm not the only person new to the hobby going through this but every time I do a search for a movement to 'play' with on eBay I'm afraid the seller is trying to flog something that can't be serviced or repaired easily. What are the things to look for or the pitfalls in listings to avoid?

Cheers

Daz

Hi again dazzystar. Bad things include if rust is seeping through, if the dial has missing digits or is splotchy, if the crystal is smashed, if it looks like it's been keyed or scratched case back and if the metal finish on the case is worn and pitted. Check the pictures thoroughly too. Also check the seller's other items and see what the description says, the more complete the better. Value wise, small lots are often the way to go, the per-watch price is better and there is a greater chance something will work. About flogged watches, since mechanical watches are all metal parts things can generally be restored. Brand wise you will see plenty of affordable Bulova watches. Timex as well. Each make good watches and each make bad watches, but you should be able to look it up before buying.

[SpringMangler]

I also tend to avoid the lower jewel count watches. Many of these, including 7 jewel Oris, are pin pallet movements. They can be frustrating when trying to re-assemble or suffer from bad wear on non jewelled bridges. On the plus side they tend to go cheap, although not in all cases. Again, a pic of the movement will show you what you're getting. 

[Waggy]

Just to echo much of the good advice above, and something I would do if I had my time over, I would go with working movements/watches as you are starting from a known reference point. You may pay a little more, but at least you will know if the watch you worked on is not working it is because you messed up and you are not left wondering if it was ever possible to get it working. Also, your chances of getting a winner are greatly improved and will reduce the risk of you throwing in the towel on you new hobby before you get started.

A lot depends on if you want to wear the watch at the end of the day. Obviously this is the ultimate goal, but starting out you may be happy with ugly cases and dials etc and focus on learning to service/repair the movements. However, as @Galilea mentions, much of the watch is metal including the case and can be repaired or restored.... with one big exception, which is the dial. With very few exceptions every dial I have attempted to 'fix' or clean up has ended up worse than when I started. Therefore, if you are looking for a watch to wear, then you need to make the quality of the dial a big consideration. This can be easier said than done as a badly beaten up crystal can hide a mint dial, but it can equally hide an ugly dial.

I ended up getting a job lot of 10 Citizen watches, which turned out to be Mumbai Specials. Now people are going to throw rocks at me for what comes next..... I was disappointed at first, mostly at myself for being suckered in. However, these were great for learning on, all 10 worked and were cheap enough that if I junked one it wasn't the end of the world. Although they were mixed up movements cobbled together from different watches all of the individual parts were genuine (except the dials and probably the hands) and I now dip into those watches from time to time to steal parts for my 'real' watches, so they worked out to be a good deal after all.

Final point, pay attention to shipping costs, I've been caught out a few times. To illustrate my point, there is one seller now advertising watches for €0.99 but postage is €66.00.

PS

Avoid Timex when you are starting out! There are lots out there for good prices however!!!!! the movements are not made for easy servicing (riveted parts instead of screws, and most have all in one bridges etc.) and, therefore, very difficult for a learner to start out on. I don't mean to rubbish the brand and some people love them, but these are experienced watch people who have already amassed the experience needed to take on a Timex. I am sure if you asked them they would admit (through gritted teeth probably) that a standard movement is better for someone to learn/practice on than a Timex movement.

[mikepilk]

I agree with all the advice above.

I never buy movements with less than 15 jewels.

I never buy a watch unless I can see good pics of the movement.

[Galilea]

55 minutes ago, Waggy said:

With very few exceptions every dial I have attempted to 'fix' or clean up has ended up worse than when I started.

Lol, @waggy, ain't it so! It's always going so well, until (inner shriek!) it isn't. I keep one failure on the desk to remind me. I's an ova, used to have a Bul on it too.

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Avoid Timex when you are starting out!

Who knew? Thanks and ignore what I said before about Timex @dazzystar.

[Waggy]

This is typical of a Timex movement... Where would you start?

PS

Again, not trashing Timex, just illustrating my previous point.

[mikepilk]

22 minutes ago, Waggy said:

 

This is typical of a Timex movement... Where would you start?

A lump hammer ?

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

Russian Raketa, Poljot or Vostok fixer uppers to be had for less than a few cups of Starbucks coffee

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by VWatchie

[eccentric59]

6 hours ago, Waggy said:

and I now dip into those watches from time to time to steal parts for my 'real' watches, so they worked out to be a good deal after all.

It is said that if you take a movement apart and put it back together often enough you end up with enough parts for two movements.  

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, Waggy said:

I ended up getting a job lot of 10 Citizen watches, which turned out to be Mumbai Specials.

Citizen cal. 8200A? Here are some informative links from John!

 

[spectre6000]

Going back to my 404 Club comment in light of intervening posts, if you hunt around a while, you get a feel for what has a decent movement and doesn't to the point where (at least for a 404 bid) I don't worry too much about movement shots. Listings without movement shots are often the best deals. I have stumbled on a highly jeweled (21!) pin lever, but that was such an interesting movement I didn't mind.

Following up on that, dial condition can be a good proxy indicator of movement health. Things that kill movements (as opposed to just stop them temporarily) are rust and mishandling. If the dial looks pristine under a garbage crystal, chances are very good there hasn't been any water ingress or meat fingered handling.

When the case is all stainless, you don't have to worry about replating or buffing through plating. I have honestly never worried about scratches on a stainless case, but if they bother you, you can always buff them out with easily achievable positive results.

Watches tend to fall into... schools based on manufacturer location; American, European, Russian, Japanese. Americans and Japanese have their cult followings, for lack of a better word. Americans tend to be about on par with European, but the finishing is idiomatically different. Japanese watches are typically very plainly finished, but good quality. Russian watches tend to be inexpensive, but they are also somewhat crude. European watches can be plain of decorated, and tend to be pretty solid. I personally focus on the European movements because I have this hangup on "character" being what you do when no one is looking, and a nicely finished movement is one of those things that I really appreciate. The UK crowd probably has a localized font of English watches, but those aren't readily available; at least not in the 404 Club. I don't have enough experience with those to know how to characterize them as above.

[dazzystar]

I need to take my foot of the accelerator here as I'm starting to get confused. This is where I'm at at the moment.

1. I've ordered a digital microscope Andonstar AD210 which should be with me next week

2. I've got a basket of goodies sitting to checkout with Cousins which includes all the important tools I need without going over the top in case I don't end up enjoying the hobby.

What I lack is:- Skills, movement(s) to practice on and a decent bean to coffee machine!

[Nucejoe]

Stick to one caliber of AS or ETA,  buy the time you have collected five or ten used ones in need of repair, you have ,

1- Spare parts, which saves you shipping costs plus the price of new spare.

2-You have several of the same parts

A- To compare  and notice one which might be partially  damaged/ worn/ any fault.

B-You can replace a part which you suspect with another one,

" process of elimination"

C-You might could make a good part out of two or several partially damaged ones.

Choose the best case/ dial and hands to make you a good watch and have plenty good used spares.

Examples; A balance complete with ruined hairspring and broken pivots, still have a good roller/table/jewel, perhaps a good balance rim. 

All parts had to be made, fitted , regulated to make  watch, you have the ready made inventory of all parts, cheap.

Tell us about your parts inventory and ask questions before you attack a movement.

Thats how I did, so I hardly wait for a part to arrive, didn't pay shipping fees for each single spare. 

Some spare parts might no longer be available, no problem if you got ten used  donor movement in inventory.

Rgds

[ColinC]

Welcome - sounds like you are about 6 months behind me in your journey....

The first watches I disassembled were quartz watches that were virtually given away - this gave me some experience of opening the watch case, using a loupe, picking up stuff with tweezers and practice of using screwdrivers properly.

I then bought a handful of watches for around the £30 each from eBay. My strategy was simple Swiss movements that other people were bidding on and to not go over budget - I am happy with most of these purchases (even the couple of funny highly jewelled movements with pin escapements are good to learn on)

I took the advice on this site and bought a $80 complete watch with an ST3600 movement, but then based on my previous experience of losing yoke springs and damaging hair springs I waited a bit before I practiced on that.  With hindsight it was really nice and easy to work on and my fear destroying an $80 watch in the first 5 minutes were unfounded.  With hindsight I think this is a great watch to use as you move up from being able to disassemble and assemble start cleaning and lubricating.

 

[Juleswatch]

Depends where you are in the world but you can pick up a nice cheep "Smiths" as everybody on here says for the price of a cup of starbucks and might be a good place to start. That was my first pocket watch, easy to see what's going on, disassemble and reassemble, and quite easy to get running, which is great when you are starting out, to see it run!