Odd timegrapher plot - could it be caused by pallet ?

[JohnR725]

58 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I'm thinking it must be hairspring contact, but surely it would be designed to allow 360° rotation before coils become too close?

This is how it looks

if you go in the YouTube settings you can change the speed of play back to 0.25 and other words really slow it's not touching. It would be nice if you could do a new video aimed in a different direction though. Because I can't get a really good picture of the hairspring and any of the other pictures and I want to see what it looks like moving.

what I can't see in the image here is it's a little too dark and it be nice to see it moving it's hard to tell the shape of the terminal curve and how close the rest of the hairspring is to hitting the backside of the regulating pins.

also did you change the mainspring in this watch?

9 hours ago, mikepilk said:

then 9415 on pallet jewels - under microscope to get the correct amount.

as you have nothing to lose what about a experiment let's go for more 9415 maybe put a little in each of the pallet stones way more than whatever you have.

then we are timing the watches it fully wound up? What if you let it run for a few hours is that change anything also put the watch crown wn and let us see what that looks like.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

what I can't see in the image here is it's a little too dark and it be nice to see it moving it's hard to tell the shape of the terminal curve and how close the rest of the hairspring is to hitting the backside of the regulating pins.

so did you change the mainspring in this watch?

There is plenty of space between to outer coil and the regulator pins.

I did change the mainspring, GR5255 - the correct one GR5254 is discontinued - same dimensions but 20mm longer.

I'll take some more vids. 

[rehajm]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

This is how it looks

Thats a better look mikepilk- thank you. It is always difficult to tell on video but by my eyes it looks flat and round but do I see a bit of asymmetry favoring the F side of the cock and though I do not confirm it here the S side outer most coils look very close before they disappear from view but again nothing definitive- slower video at a another angle might be more definitive…what does the tg do in other positions?

..and GR5255- the length is different as you say and cousins lists 5255 as barrel 9.5 and GR5254 is 9 but the strength of both is .10…

sorry- you’re right- this one’s trouble…

…if you conclude there’s no visual evidence of the hairspring touching anywhere and you’ve reset drop to banking and comfortable with the pallet…just try a new main or a weaker one…they are known to make packing mistakes - cousins ksent be beard trimmings with a sealed mainspring pack once…or there’s the voodoo of under/over oiling the pallet or changing the viscosity

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by rehajm

[rehajm]

...also a noob question: this is the FHF 150 but what does the '1045' on the bridge represent? Reference?

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

...also a noob question: this is the FHF 150 but what does the '1045' on the bridge represent? Reference?

No idea what the 1045 is.

Took the hairspring off to check it sits correctly on the balance cock - the collet is pretty central. The coils are nicely spaced and the terminal curve is OK.

Gave it another clean in acetone and IPA.

Same problem. 

I'll put the entry pallet jewel back where it first was to give more lock. Slap some more (i.e. too much) 9415 around the escape wheel, and if necessary, some oil on the pallet pivots to slow it all down.

Edited August 24, 2023 by mikepilk

[JohnR725]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:14 AM, mikepilk said:

roller.

when you're replacing things is this the roller jewel or the entire roller assembly? Then if it was the jewel and as you had everything out did you check to make sure it still nice and tight? Because a loose roller jewel also causes issues on the graphical display like an escapement issue as it is part of the escapement. I sometimes seen with my pocket watches were in one direction at solid he gets a nice line and then the other direction it looks rough because it moves in that direction.

[rehajm]

That hairspring looks brilliant - how can I find a fault? With a good strong rotation it is rubbing together at the exit of the collet at the bend or…rubbing the collet pin where it sticks out a bit. I have no confidence in either- it looks great…

..sorry mate, good luck with this one. Keep us posted…

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

No idea what the 1045 is

I did look this up…here on this site- thanks gents…

Rone watches were listed (by Pritchard) as Rone Watch Co. SA, Bole (circumflex on 'o'), Switzerland, and the same source mentions that they were listed again from 1966-1973. Rone watches were seemingly in production from the 1940s (1920s more likely based on case hallmarking) until the middle of the 1970s. A variety of models are found branded, Rone, including some in solid gold, which can have the maker's mark "RWC" or "RWCo" for Rone Watch Company. In connection with the designation, RWC, there has been some confusion with Rolex, but Rone watches are not related to Rolex in any way.

They used FHF movements and labeled them. There are Rone cal 1045s out in the wild right now…

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

when you're replacing things is this the roller jewel or the entire roller assembly? Then if it was the jewel and as you had everything out did you check to make sure it still nice and tight? Because a loose roller jewel also causes issues on the graphical display like an escapement issue as it is part of the escapement. I sometimes seen with my pocket watches were in one direction at solid he gets a nice line and then the other direction it looks rough because it moves in that direction.

The completer roller was replaced. The jewel is secure.

[mikepilk]

Just to add the conclusion. I pulled both pallet jewels out a touch, and fixed the problem.

The trace is far from flat due to gear wear, and there's variation in other positions, but I'll wear it for a day, and see how it averages out.

We sometimes become too obsessed with the timegrapher plots, but it's real life wear performance that matters.

I think @JohnR725 would agree with that?

  

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

We sometimes become too obsessed with the timegrapher plots, but it's real life wear performance that matters.

I think @JohnR725 would agree with that?

yes one of those interesting lessons from my first instructor in watch repair don't please the timing machine. The lesson we never learned at work so I end up spending a lot of time trying to please the timing machine so my boss will be happy. the other day he was unhappy with some little ladies watch and definitely got worse before it got better and then I believe the saying about don't please the timing machine may have come up and he finally left well enough alone.

Oh thinking of other things the instructor used to say hopefully get this right which is don't make  a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Which unfortunately applies to a lot of watches that doesn't mean you can do sloppy work but it doesn't mean they're going to keep chronometer time and look beautiful on a timing machine either.

11 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I pulled both pallet jewels out a touch, and fixed the problem.

so when you're doing that were there any observations of any problem with the pallet stones? Other than now the problem is gone?

 

[mikepilk]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh thinking of other things the instructor used to say hopefully get this right which is don't make  a silk purse out of a sow's ear. 

I like the version - you cannot polish a turd 

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

so when you're doing that were there any observations of any problem with the pallet stones? Other than now the problem is gone?

When I first checked the pallet jewels before cleaning, I noticed too much lock on the entry stone, so I pushed it in to match the exit. If I'd left it alone, I doubt I would have had a problem.

[JohnR725]

18 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I noticed too much lock on the entry stone, so I pushed it in to match the exit. If I'd left it alone, I doubt I would have had a problem.

one of the problems with visual observation is that it also depends on the safety features. In other words there is a procedure to verify things are correct you check various clearances first and then you look at the pallet depth so even though the depth may look outstandingly huge for that particular watch it may be just fine depending upon the safety features.