Help with mantle clock

[tyl]

Gents - I received great help for my Schatz 8 day carriage clock and am happy that it continuously runs again.  Thx to oldhippy and a number of others who helped - I am calling that project complete.  Now seeking help with mantle clock.

It does not run.  The backplate is stamped with a medical medusa or Caduceus with R on the left side, C on the right side, and (I think) A at the bottom on the rear place seen when opening the back portal.  It is also stamped 543352 at the bottom of the back plate.  I have included pictures.  

I have it perfectly level, have just carefully oiled it, and cannot get it to run.  I am now keeping the pendulum moving enough to release some of the tension as it is wound tight with the key.

The suspension bracket (?) which holds the pendulum must be slanted upwards as shown in the picture for the gears to work and move the hands.  Strange - seems it should be parallel to the ground.  

Can anyone possibly provide info about this clock, maker, age, etc.  - and ideas about how I might get it to run?

Appreciate your help.

 

 

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi the clock is attributed to C.A.RICHARD &cie. Rue de Bonny,Paris Frankenriech 1867 

from your description it sounds very much that the escapement is all out of kilter. What needs to be done is remove the movement from the case, and set on a level base with the clock level and see where it’s at, check the state of the anchor/ pallets for wear, broken or bent pivots and worn pivot holes,  In other words the obvious. Check the pallet locking on the escape wheel.   The state of the plates looks like it’s in need of a good clean and oil. Maybe a new suspension spring as any kinks bends or twists render it useless. Enough for starters,  but remove the movement set it up and then maybe more pictures especially of the escapement.   By the way it a nice little clock.

[oldhippy]

It is a French strike and it is filthy and I would say it is 8 day duration with rack striking. The suspension spring is broken (see photo) so it will not work properly. It needs a good clean. These movements are good quality and made in there thousands. It is late for me and I'm off to bed. I can carry on tomorrow explaining what and how to clean these movements. 

[watchweasol]

Hi the one thing to remember when dismantling cleaning and re assembling these French clocks is the pivots are glass hard and brittle and will nor stand any rough treatment, so if you are going to dismantle it for cleaning, which would advised to do bear it in mind.   To bring theses clocks back to a shine a propriety cleaner such as Priory clock  cleaner is used  dismantled parts are soaked an brushed to remove the tarnish(watchmakers bristle brush) dried with a hair dryer.  Of prime importance before starting anything is to REMOVE THE POWER from the mainsprings. It will make a nice looking clock.

[oldhippy]

After letting the power off both springs. Take the movement apart and look for wear on the pivots and the pivot holes as some might need rebushing. I will cover that if it is needed, let me know. Check the springs for faults if they need replacing then do so as it will affect the running of the movement. I have already pointed out the suspension spring has broken. Re-place it with a new one that has brass blocks not those plastic types.  

Cleaning these movement properly takes a lot of elbow grease. Put all the brass parts in a clock cleaning solution I always used Horolene all brass parts must be completely covered if not the cleaner will leave a line and you will never remove it. You will have to judge how long to keep it in the cleaner from what I see I would leave it for 12 hours. Remove and wash the parts in water. Now for polishing all the brass parts. You will need Brasso polish a brush a clockmakers wash out brush will be OK and clean cloths lot of. You polish all parts after applying the Brasso you clean and polish the parts with cloth so you end up with a nice shine. Wash out in petrol and dry I always used sawdust but these days I understand a hair dryer is used.

Now for the screws you will need a lathe for this to undertake the job properly they should all be cleaned remove all the burr and then polished by using needle files and various grits of emery sticks or cloth until a high finish, if screws have been blued then they should be blued again. If you want to know about that I can explain for you. The barrel arbors should have the burr removed and cleaned with your bench file and the ends both polished in the same way as the screws.  When it comes to putting it all back together I can help you with that as the wheels with pins on the strike side have to be in a certain position.

One last thing some on here might say Brasso is an abrasive and should not be used. This is rubbish it is a liquid and the amount you use makes no difference at all.  

[watchweasol]

HI attached is the front plate of a rack strike french clock  might be handy to locate and name parts.

[tyl]

So far I am overwhelmed.  Let me start with baby steps.

Oldhippy - very good eye.  The suspension spring is in fact broken; the front leg is broken away from the plastic (foot-keeper?). And that explains why it spins a bit as it swings back and forth.  I believe it can be removed by extracting a pin at the top.  Is it possible to put a spot of glue on it?  Then I would test the clock to see if it might run.  How would one find a replacement?

For now I am too apprehensive to take anything apart- so I will pass on the advice in the other posts but am appreciative for all the help.

Responding to the first reply from watchweasol.  As a novice the inside looks very clean to me.  The pallets look good; I see no broken or bent pivot.  Not sure about pivot holes.  Can not identify the escape wheel; have not been able to find a schematic of the clock from the internet (appreciate the front schematic sent last night) - so I cannot comment on the pallet locking on the escape wheel - makes it difficult correctly to name the parts.

More pics below to show the escapement (?).  I had to angle it upward to make the clock tick and pics show it upward and also level or parallel to the ground.  When angling it up I notice the rear pivot does not appear to come out of the pivot hole but there seems to be some slight side to side movement and the pivot hole seems to be countersunk somewhat, not visible - I assume a very small pivot hole is below the countersink.

With the escapement level the pivot rod will not slide back and forth.  With the escapement upward this rod will move significantly - maybe 1/4 inch back and forth.

All for now.  And I appreciate the help.  So immediate question is whether I should attempt to glue the foot on the suspension spring.  Would be shocked to know that this is the only reason the clock would not run - but perhaps possible???

Suspension spring appears to be about 5mmx28mm.  Think I could find this in the USA?  Does my measurement sound correct?

Correction 28x5x13mm

[tyl]

Wondering if someone could post a picture of a very clean clockwork - for me to compare to mine which I thought looked pretty doggone clean.

Believe I found a suspension spring.  Ordered it tonight.  This is a new suspension spring for a French clock movement.  Measures approximately 1 inch long x 3/16 inch wide (25 x 4.9 mm).  Brass fittings. 

Could someone give me an estimate of the value if I can get it properly repaired and working, please.

 

Thx.

General information - we purchased this clock 50 years ago in our first year of marriage.  It did not run then or since.  With more time on my hands now I would like to bring it back up to working condition.

[oldhippy]

The bad news first it has little value less then £100 more like £50. That is the type of s/spring. One other thing I noticed with the movement and that is its a self beat, I notice the crutch has a split on the side of the brass that threads onto the pallets so it should be friction tight, these means when the movement is in good condition you would swing the pendulum and it will put itself in beat. I have ringed the place in the photo so you can see what I'm talking about. I'm also including a photo of what one of these movements look like after a service. 

[watchweasol]

Hi. Your idea of glueing the spring is a non starter, it would impair the freedom of the spring. Best to replace it with the one you ordered for starters and see what happens. I take it you do not feel confident enough to do a full service/repair on this clock. The photo supplied bu OH shows how clean it can look can look done properly and realistically that is what it needs and by doing so will reveal any anomalies for example worn pivots and pivot holes, worn teeth , escapement, which can be then repaired. By not doing so and running the clock as it ( if we can get it started) it will only add to any wear and shorte n it’s life.  So a service is what it needs to be kind to the clock and give you the pleasure of it working well for a long time.

[tyl]

Wow; that is a beautiful movement.  Thanks for the replies.  For now- no glue and wait until Aug 18 when the suspension spring is supposed to arrive.  

Disappointed about the value but not discouraged.  Were I to take it to a clock repair shop, how much would you gents estimate I would spend to have it put in working order?

What is the purpose of the escarpment being moveable up and down?  Am I incorrect; should it really be fairly parallel to the ground and I have it adjusted way to up?  Looks strange but that seems the only way to make the pallet move the gear; cannot hear it tick even when parallel.

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi as far as repair costs it depends on what the repair man finds. Worn bushes, worn pinions. Definitely needs a good clean up to standard of the one OH showed.  A friend of mine in the U.K was quoted £350  for a three train bracket clock .  Yours probably £200  to £250. These are only rough estimates, it may be considerably less depends on the repair shop and their pricing structure.

the escapement moves up and down to enable you to set the entry and exit locking on the escape wheel  one correct and the beat (tick/tock) is set even on a level surface it should work quite happily. As mentioned by OH it’s self beat setting due to the friction fitting on the pallet arbour of the crutch.

[oldhippy]

I would have thought about £250. If you do decide to have it serviced make sure it is cleaned by hand and not in one of those ultrasonic  baths as they can harm this type of movement.  

[tyl]

Excellent; thank you all for the feedback.

[tyl]

Update.  I replaced the suspension spring yesterday and the clock has run now for 17 hours.  It picked up ten minutes so I assume I need to make the pendulum a bit longer.  Attached is a pic showing how tilted I was required to make the escapement for it to run.  This was very, very, very touchy.  I must have adjusted it slightly, slightly up and down over one hundred times before it would continue to run; otherwise it would tick about 30-60 times and then stop.  The pic shows how much angle the escapement needed; this cannot be by design.

 

Thanks again for your help.  I am getting close.  And it has been nice hearing the chimes over the last half day.

Edited August 7, 2023 by tyl
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[Kalanag]

The movement seems to be tilt.

This video might be helpful:

„How to set up a French Mantle Clock“

Edited August 7, 2023 by Kalanag

[tyl]

Thank you.  I have seen that video before.  I notice that his escapement is about parallel to the ground whereas mine must slant upwards for the clock to run.  What he does not show is how/why to adjust the escapement.

 

Thx.

[Kalanag]

See here:

How to set a Mantle Clock in Beat

[watchweasol]

Hi  Whatit shows is the pallets and the crutch are way out. what you need to do is to set the escapement square  so its level the pallets will be way out. then move the crutch so that the pallets are able to tick and tock evenly by hand then try it on its own. it may be close so then lift each side if the clock untill you get an even beat and then level the clock and  adjust the crutch to the high side a little at a time untill you achieve an even beat.   The crucial factor is EVERYTHING must be level, escapement, movement in the case and where you put the clock to run if any one of these parameters is wrong it WILL NOT run...

 

 

[oldhippy]

You have got the s/spring in between the block. If not it will not work. 

First of all make sure where you want the clock that it has a flat surface, you can do this with a small spirit level. 

You need to make sure the movement looks in line I can see from the back it is to one side, loosen the two screws at the back and look at the front and twist the whole movement so it looks in line with the top of the case you can do this by looking at the dial and compare the number 12 to the center of the case top, then screw up the two screws.  Make sure it has a little power on the springs, Then swing the pendulum as I said in a reply I made the other day, the sound you are looking for is an even tick toke, if it has what is known a wooden leg the clock is not in beat so repeat again with the pendulum. If it still doesn't work then something major needs to be done, like a complete service.   

[tyl]

OHip - I leveled the clockworks using a spirit level with 3 and 9 as reference.  And surprisingly the clock wooden housing checks out as just about perfectly level front and side.  

When I took it downstairs yesterday without removing the pendulum, I got it out of whack again and it would not run.  It has taken another three hours of gently moving the escapement up and down again and listening for the wooden leg (which it constantly exhibited) until this morning magically I seemed to have hit the right spot.  It is ticking beautifully and has been running for about twenty minutes.  (I fear taking it downstairs again.)

Backtracking it was running downstairs and chiming well for two days when I found it gained 10 minutes overnight.  When I removed the pendulum to make it longer, for some reason the entire pin and suspension spring came out.  Obviously I had not installed and pinned it properly.  I let out the weight on the pendulum, removed the entire clockwork again, and reinstalled the suspension spring and pendulum.

After that it would no longer work.  It took a total of about five hours to get back to square one, but it is running now.  Has run for some thirty minutes and sounds great.  Even the quality of the chime has improved.

Your help is much appreciated.

 

To Watchweasol - Thank you for your post.   I understand your directions somewhat although I can find no schematic showing me exactly a crutch or a pallet.  I am guessing using the Aug 2 posting picture where OHip kindly drew a circle around these parts.  As less than a novice in clockworks, I am extremely reluctant to make such an adjustment - especially with the clock in possibly working mode today. If the clock stops running or I cannot correct the speed, I may give this another thought.

But for the last thirty minutes I have been extremely happy.

Again thank you for your help.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by tyl

[watchweasol]

Hi Congratulations on the working clock,   The pallets are the metal anchor shaped bit that works on the escapement wheel  and the crutch is the bit that the pendulum hangs from  The parts drawing will identfy the parts although its of a different clock the terminology is the  same

The  crutch is simply the extension of the escapement arbour which holds the pallets on the pallet staff and the tail hangs down the rear of the clock. the suspension leader is on the end of the suspension spring and runs through the fork in the crutch and carries the pendulum. as the pendulum swings it moves the crutch and the pallets in the escapement wheel          tick  tock. 

[tyl]

Excellent.  That should help a lot.  Need to study this set of drawings.  I am certainly not intending to adjust the pallets and the escapement if it keeps reasonable time.  But we shall see.  I did search quite a bit for a pic like that above with no luck.  Thanks for that. 

So far I find the most critical tools used to remedy my problems are my ears; I can absolutely hear that it is ticking pretty well.  

What I do not see above is the escapement.  Mine has a geared wheel on the top (horizontal) and what appears to be a locking and adjustable mechanism on the 9:00 side.  It can be seen in the last picture in the Aug 2 post and was sent by OldHippy to show a clean clockwork; his picture looks almost exactly like my clock.  I am wondering if this gear turns when the clock operates?  Unable to see what is actually below this gear as it is enclosed in a brass box.  Do not think I oiled this gear.

Edited August 8, 2023 by tyl
Addition

[tyl]

I have very carefully moved it downstairs where it can be under continual surveillance.   Still afraid that it is gaining some time and the pendulum is mostly let out as much as it will go.

[oldhippy]

Does the pendulum have the same number stamped on it that is on the movement, that is the way of knowing if the pendulum is the correct one, you might need to get a longer s/spring. I love the antiques you have.