Working with a Seagull ST36 Movement

[clockboy]

This article appeared in this months BHI mag and I thought worth Sharing part of it as I am sure many here will be interested in this and its conclusions. The contributor made a watch based on a Chinese Seagull ST36 movement (an ETA 6498 lookalike and wore it for two years. After this he serviced the watch as part of his BHI D14 exam.

Conclusion

After two years, the wheel train and the escapement remained in good condition. However, the brass used for the pillar-plate, the steel used for the screws, and the keyless work are too soft and poorly treated to meet good horological standards, and parts started to wear out or crack following 24 months of daily use, Figure 5.

The broken or worn parts were replaced by ETA 6497 parts or scavenged from a new movement. As of writing this review, the ST36 movement costs £35-£60 on eBay, including shipping. During use, the movement needed adjustment several times for timekeeping.

So, what would be the use of such a movement? Based on the findings, I would not recommend it as a replacement for ETA 64xx. Also, the movement is not viable for custom-made watch projects. 
 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by clockboy

[JohnR725]

On 7/29/2023 at 2:58 AM, clockboy said:

So, what would be the use of such a movement?

It's a excellent training movement that is going to have a short life as a training movements for newbies. It is also considerably cheaper than purchasing a brand-new 6497.

 

On 7/29/2023 at 2:58 AM, clockboy said:

Based on the findings, I would not recommend it as a replacement for ETA 64xx. Also, the movement is not viable for custom-made watch projects. 

But I would agree that it looks like for anything long term it's not your best option.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 7/29/2023 at 10:58 AM, clockboy said:

This article appeared in this months BHI mag and I thought worth Sharing part of it as I am sure many here will be interested in this and its conclusions. The contributor made a watch based on a Chinese Seagull ST36 movement (an ETA 6498 lookalike and wore it for two years. After this he serviced the watch as part of his BHI D14 exam.

Conclusion

After two years, the wheel train and the escapement remained in good condition. However, the brass used for the pillar-plate, the steel used for the screws, and the keyless work are too soft and poorly treated to meet good horological standards, and parts started to wear out or crack following 24 months of daily use, Figure 5.

The broken or worn parts were replaced by ETA 6497 parts or scavenged from a new movement. As of writing this review, the ST36 movement costs £35-£60 on eBay, including shipping. During use, the movement needed adjustment several times for timekeeping.

So, what would be the use of such a movement? Based on the findings, I would not recommend it as a replacement for ETA 64xx. Also, the movement is not viable for custom-made watch projects. 
 

 

 

I have seen previous posts here also on other forums that after some beginners had lost parts like the typical springs and jewels that beginners often ping away, they were unable to obtain any replacements to have that movement working again. Possibly resulting in another purchase of that movement. Personally i wouldn't have liked to start my learning on a low cost Chinese movement.  I understand Seagull has been long established, something like almost 70 years and is the largest manufacturerer of mechanical watches in the world. But I still class it as super mass produced rubbish. Some things we cant avoid like electronics, anywhere else cant match their costs. And I've seen cheap power tools and electrical items last little more than a year or 2. The UK used to make some very long lasting equipment years ago, i expect most of the companies long since gone. But the things they made still around and working well, i see them all the time at car boots. I would always want to learn on and see quality first before having to deal with cheap crap. 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Personally i wouldn't have liked to start my learning on a low cost Chinese movement. 

Would you have a suggestion of what people should start with?

Ideally people should start with broken pocket watch movements that nobody cares about. But I find people starting watch repair think that watch repair is cleaning a watch and that even their first  practice watch will be successful. After all if you watch any of the YouTube videos there always successful. So people who start on broken watches end up with lots of frustrations over just trying to get the watch fixed.

So the pocket watch movement is nice and big relatively cheap and it's running. If it's not running and parts go missing the new watchmaker discovers that there is more to repairing a watch than just taking it apart and cleaning it.

You want to have some fun go look up the brand-new price of the Swiss 6497? When you look at the newbies on the group there all upset about the costs the tools the costly oil and I was going to do this yesterday But I forgot so instead of buying the clone lets by the new one because parts are still available

Okay so $320 versus

On 7/29/2023 at 2:58 AM, clockboy said:

ST36 movement costs £35-£60 on eBay

So how many Chinese clones can you purchase versus the original one.

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some things we cant avoid like electronics

What avoid Chinese electronics? The problem with a discussion like this is we can pick and choose and I rather like some Chinese electronics I sure other electronics is rubbish but there is a particular Chinese company I like silly cat badmouth all of China.

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would always want to learn on and see quality first before having to deal with cheap crap.

So with your practical experience of learning watch repair what would you recommend we should recommend to the newbies to start to learn with?

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Would you have a suggestion of what people should start with?

Ideally people should start with broken pocket watch movements that nobody cares about. But I find people starting watch repair think that watch repair is cleaning a watch and that even their first  practice watch will be successful. After all if you watch any of the YouTube videos there always successful. So people who start on broken watches end up with lots of frustrations over just trying to get the watch fixed.

So the pocket watch movement is nice and big relatively cheap and it's running. If it's not running and parts go missing the new watchmaker discovers that there is more to repairing a watch than just taking it apart and cleaning it.

You want to have some fun go look up the brand-new price of the Swiss 6497? When you look at the newbies on the group there all upset about the costs the tools the costly oil and I was going to do this yesterday But I forgot so instead of buying the clone lets by the new one because parts are still available

Okay so $320 versus

So how many Chinese clones can you purchase versus the original one.

What avoid Chinese electronics? The problem with a discussion like this is we can pick and choose and I rather like some Chinese electronics I sure other electronics is rubbish but there is a particular Chinese company I like silly cat badmouth all of China.

So with your practical experience of learning watch repair what would you recommend we should recommend to the newbies to start to learn with?

 

 

 

Haha, i take that on the chin John. I did say PERSONALLY i wouldnt like to. But then just maybe I'm not like everyone else. I'm not knocking your suggestion of using a clone, it has some very valid positives. Its new,its complete and it runs and as you say it determines the learner is at fault when it doesn't work after disassembly and reassembly.  Buts its also of poor quality and easily broken ( not my experience as i havent tried one and neither would i want to,so only as i have read others say ). The experience of working on a quality product is undeniably much more enjoyable, which i will also say is not a true representation of a majority of watches. My suggestion for very first watches would probably be a few broken ones they are usually cheap. Just something to take apart over and over and over again, just to get a feel for using basic tools and familiarising oneself with the many different parts of a watch.  That can take up weeks of learning to use screwdrivers and tweezers correctly. It also takes away the fear of breaking something which is new and working which can be very frustrating and disheartening when it happens within minutes and IT will. Then after running examples of some of the broken ones if possible. Me personally, i bought a bucket load of around 500 quartz watches and movements (some working, many not) which if i remember cost me about 60 quid ( $80 ?). Then over a xmas period of around 3 weeks while i was off work spent maybe 6 hours a day taking them apart and putting them back together. Something of an intense crash course in using basic tools, each following day showed an improvement in manipulation of tools and a handling of parts. I then moved onto cheap mechanical watch joblots, generally choosing when i found them multiples of the same movements.  Sometimes ladies watches which were basically the same but much much cheaper. That gave me the bigger challenge of handling smaller parts ( i dont like to make things easy for myself ). Trying to repair the broken watches made me dig deeper into books to find out why they wouldn't work ( and it still does, i never miss an opportunity to buy another old horology book ). I can appreciate this is not everyone's style, i like challenges and i like to push myself. But i also keep in mind that skill and experience is not gained overnight, so i remain realistic with how i progress.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

What avoid Chinese electronics? The problem with a discussion like this is we can pick and choose and I rather like some Chinese electronics I sure other electronics is rubbish but there is a particular Chinese company I like silly cat badmouth all of China

Thats the world we've come to live in, surrounded by cheap mass produced rubbish. Lets spend more money and fill our houses with more shit then chuck it in a landfill shortly after when its broken. What happened to when you saved up for a decent quality product that lasted a lifetime. You respected it and looked after it because you saved up for it. Cheap mass production took all that away because you could have it now. It just created want and more want as fast as possible. By our own doing or rather our government's doing. I'd rather not get into politics but our past Uk governments have ruined the countries of this island  because we stopped bloody  producing, worst thing ever.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Buts its also of poor quality and easily broken ( not my experience as i havent tried one and neither would i want to,so only as i have read others say ).

Personally I don't know anything about long term use. I actually have two of them lurking around in the house someplace but I'm not running them every day so I don't know what the long-term use is. When I was teaching the school we used them as a watch to practice on. Although they did practice on something before they got that watch.

The only thing that I found disturbing as it training watch was cleaning one of mine the hairspring came unglued after just a couple of cleanings. The glue method of attaching the hairspring the stud is acceptable if the glue doesn't disintegrate as fast as this. Then there's the issue about the balance shock spring one little milling step and the spring doesn't hinge it falls out. But once you show the students how to put it back in it was fine I think everybody did get their watches back together. So basically for training purposes I always considered them basically a disposable item. Because I figured they probably wouldn't hold up after multiple generations of work just because they won't.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Then over a xmas period of around 3 weeks while i was off work spent maybe 6 hours a day taking them apart and putting them back together.

Do you know what happens if you go to a school teaching watch repair like wostep in Switzerland? Slightly more control than what you describe but the same thing. Although I believe we spent 11 hours a day taking things apart adjusting putting them back together. The problem with a group like this is they don't want to do that they want to work on individual watches and learn as they go typically starting with something they shouldn't with no prior experience and yes that has interesting outcomes doesn't it. So yes it would be really nice if people just get something in practice with it taken apart put it back together taken apart put it back together. But that's not what they want to do

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

because we stopped bloody  producing, worst thing ever.

Yes politics will always get us in trouble but a lot of places stopped producing because the Chinese took the place. Which brings up a problem of what if the Chinese quit making cheap stuff for us then every going to be

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

cheap mass produced rubbish

Picking and choosing again I get to. Yes they do produce a lot of cheap stuff and send it at prices that I is Belief. Although somewhat I've seen that when the Chinese ship the government subsidizes the shipping cost.

Okay here's an example the Chinese electronic product good prices against cheap and it contributes to making of too much stuff. Easy to make stuff almost like you could make it yourself?

https://bigtree-tech.com/

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

past Uk governments have ruined the countries of this island  because we stopped bloody  producing, worst thing ever.

I could write you a couple of paragraphs on this but there's another problem. Did you know producing a watch is basically the cost is 90 some percent labor at least it was the thing that I'm currently reading. I have some things written by somebody who worked in the Elgin watch factory who commented why in this country we couldn't at the time compete with the Swiss. The machinery basically all the same everything more or less the same except and for that you look at the parking lot. Swiss factory the business owner is a nice car anyone else has a cheaper car and everybody else bicycles or they take the bus train whatever. You look at the Elgin factory for hosts and the beautiful green lawn that used to be out front is gone and the whole place is surrounded with parking lots lots of them thousands of cars. Plus they're all blue-collar workers in the Swiss factory earning one half the pay of US workers. So I really don't know how the government would deal with a problem like that even in the UK of they can make it cheaper someplace else. Although my understanding the cost of living in Switzerland is not cheap anymore. But

So unlike other countries where will we priced yourself out of business there is ways of adapting like nifty machines like this. If you find the machine interesting look at the rest of his channel the previous video it went to the factory where they made the machines. Having a visitor watch factory are several of them in Switzerland machines like this really must be a game changer because before to retool would be very difficult. You pay attention a video I think he says it takes less than an hour to retool and make something else and having the optical feedback of what's going on.

https://youtu.be/6Skc3QGISCA

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with a group like this is they don't want to do that they want to work on individual watches and learn as they go typically starting with something they shouldn't with no prior experience and yes that has interesting outcomes doesn't it. So yes it would be really nice if people just get something in practice with it taken apart put it back together taken apart put it back together. But th

I understand that completely John , people can be eager to run before they can walk. Much more related to a younger generation.  I'm 56, so have outgrown most of my impatience, and have always had some kind of order as to how i do things ( admittedly not perfect, we are only human after all ) Your tool use needs to be accurate and efficient to do good work, makes sense to know how to use them correctly first and in a way that works best for oneself. Bad habits are difficult to remove, i once read somewhere and this is related to muscle building but still applies. It takes approximately 500 repetitions to develop a form ( a body movement, a habit created by a mind to muscle connection ) . If that form ( habit ) that you have been practicing is poor it can then take another 5000 repetitions to break that form and create a new correct one . Moral is get it right first time or waste time retraining to get it right. That was my theory behind practicing with all the broken watches, just to get a technique pattern down solid before i even touched anything working. 

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes politics will always get us in trouble but a lot of places stopped producing because the Chinese took the place. Which brings up a problem of what if the Chinese quit making cheap stuff for us then every going to be

There with you John, most of the world is dependent on China's production. They pull the plug on it would leave us screwed. What have we done . But did we know any better all those years ago when buying all those nice cheap things in one go without having to wait. Someone must have and kept it quiet. 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

younger generation

Not necessarily the younger generation but a variety contributing factors like YouTube. Look how easy and simple it is to disassemble clean and reassemble.

It would be really interesting with YouTube videos if somebody was doing there usual disassembly cleaning reassembly and? And if they would stop and say oh we have a problem okay we will need to diagnose the problem. Then once that's diagnosed they fix the problem and possibly re-clean reassemble do you ever see that in a video?

So yes I find it troubling with the videos that make it look so simple people want to practice on live watches. My reference that watch repair is like learning to be a doctor but typically doctors don't start on live patients. Typically doctors get the practice a lot before they touch a live patients. But yes were now in the instant gratification world of I want to start on something right now like my Rolex or great grandpa's watch that the family would disown me if I destroyed it and I have these videos and what's the worst that could happen.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Picking and choosing again I get to. Yes they do produce a lot of cheap stuff and send it at prices that I is Belief. Although somewhat I've seen that when the Chinese ship the government subsidizes the shipping cost.

Okay here's an example the Chinese electronic product good prices against cheap and it contributes to making of too much stuff. Easy to make stuff almost like you could make it yourself?

Yes I've noticed their governments subsidy. They need to keep supplying everybody at whatever cost. They can't take over the world otherwise . And yes they do excel at electronics unfortunately, which is a real bummer because it completely surrounds is in our homes, vehicals , streets ,shops everywhere.  In fact we can't manage without it, maybe i should buy a tent and live in the middle of a field

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Personally I don't know anything about long term use. I actually have two of them lurking around in the house someplace but I'm not running them every day so I don't know what the long-term use is. When I was teaching the school we used them as a watch to practice on. Although they did practice on something before they got that watch.

The only thing that I found disturbing as it training watch was cleaning one of mine the hairspring came unglued after just a couple of cleanings. The glue method of attaching the hairspring the stud is acceptable if the glue doesn't disintegrate as fast as this. Then there's the issue about the balance shock spring one little milling step and the spring doesn't hinge it falls out. But once you show the students how to put it back in it was fine I think everybody did get their watches back together. So basically for training purposes I always considered them basically a disposable item. Because I figured they probably wouldn't hold up after multiple generations of work just because they won't.

Do you know what happens if you go to a school teaching watch repair like wostep in Switzerland? Slightly more control than what you describe but the same thing. Although I believe we spent 11 hours a day taking things apart adjusting putting them back together. The problem with a group like this is they don't want to do that they want to work on individual watches and learn as they go typically starting with something they shouldn't with no prior experience and yes that has interesting outcomes doesn't it. So yes it would be really nice if people just get something in practice with it taken apart put it back together taken apart put it back together. But that's not what they want to do

Yes politics will always get us in trouble but a lot of places stopped producing because the Chinese took the place. Which brings up a problem of what if the Chinese quit making cheap stuff for us then every going to be

Picking and choosing again I get to. Yes they do produce a lot of cheap stuff and send it at prices that I is Belief. Although somewhat I've seen that when the Chinese ship the government subsidizes the shipping cost.

Okay here's an example the Chinese electronic product good prices against cheap and it contributes to making of too much stuff. Easy to make stuff almost like you could make it yourself?

https://bigtree-tech.com/

I could write you a couple of paragraphs on this but there's another problem. Did you know producing a watch is basically the cost is 90 some percent labor at least it was the thing that I'm currently reading. I have some things written by somebody who worked in the Elgin watch factory who commented why in this country we couldn't at the time compete with the Swiss. The machinery basically all the same everything more or less the same except and for that you look at the parking lot. Swiss factory the business owner is a nice car anyone else has a cheaper car and everybody else bicycles or they take the bus train whatever. You look at the Elgin factory for hosts and the beautiful green lawn that used to be out front is gone and the whole place is surrounded with parking lots lots of them thousands of cars. Plus they're all blue-collar workers in the Swiss factory earning one half the pay of US workers. So I really don't know how the government would deal with a problem like that even in the UK of they can make it cheaper someplace else. Although my understanding the cost of living in Switzerland is not cheap anymore. But

So unlike other countries where will we priced yourself out of business there is ways of adapting like nifty machines like this. If you find the machine interesting look at the rest of his channel the previous video it went to the factory where they made the machines. Having a visitor watch factory are several of them in Switzerland machines like this really must be a game changer because before to retool would be very difficult. You pay attention a video I think he says it takes less than an hour to retool and make something else and having the optical feedback of what's going on.

https://youtu.be/6Skc3QGISCA

 

 

 

 

Yes i watched that last week John . Machines building machines . Micro Tornos cnc machines, incredable. All that company money built up from monopolising and taking production away from the rest of the world through clever cost reducing ( essentially not wasting money ) tactics many years ago allows this kind of technology now. Future proofing to take massive chunks of world supply. Someone is going to do. Disciplined idealists. 

27 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Not necessarily the younger generation but a variety contributing factors like YouTube. Look how easy and simple it is to disassemble clean and reassemble.

It would be really interesting with YouTube videos if somebody was doing there usual disassembly cleaning reassembly and? And if they would stop and say oh we have a problem okay we will need to diagnose the problem. Then once that's diagnosed they fix the problem and possibly re-clean reassemble do you ever see that in a video?

So yes I find it troubling with the videos that make it look so simple people want to practice on live watches. My reference that watch repair is like learning to be a doctor but typically doctors don't start on live patients. Typically doctors get the practice a lot before they touch a live patients. But yes were now in the instant gratification world of I want to start on something right now like my Rolex or great grandpa's watch that the family would disown me if I destroyed it and I have these videos and what's the worst that could happen.

Haha yes John, watchmaking for dummies, i should write the book. I could make a fortune then use the money to compete with Swatch. Tbh i think i would just buy more tools

Edited July 31, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[grsnovi]

I've tangled with 2 of these. With the first the glue that fixed the balance spring to the balance dissolved while I was cleaning it. I subsequently put that one aside and purchased a 2nd which remains untouched.

The idea of starting your watch "makers" journey on an ancient (aka: 100 y.o. available everywhere for next to nothing) because it is larger and therefore easier to work on is a seductive idea however the better move would likely be to start with a watch that is a known "runner". Having purchased a dozen of so ancient Elgins (or portions there of) I can tell you that starting with an old watch that isn't running means that you need to be able to diagnose WHY it isn't running and then you're faced with the: How do I source parts for this watch? Even having two "identical" movements doesn't guarantee that the individual parts will be interchangeable.

Even working through a step-by-step course that uses the ST36 as the "hands on" example will give you the ability to use screw drivers and tweezers to disassemble and re-assemble a watch movement that ought to "work" when you're done. But when you're done all you have is a piece of junk movement.

Just my 2 cents...

[Jon]

I've used ST36 watches for four years to teach to beginners, so must have gone through about 80 watches/movements and find them a good choice for the money. I buy them directly from Hong Kong and China.

The students work on the same movement for three months and still have them working within Chronometer standards. Seriously. these movements are that good to adjust and regulate in my experience and opinion even having them taken apart and put together so many times. I've come across two broken screws in all that time and a couple of movements had some issues. Maybe a 1 to 2% fail rate, but those can still be used for spare parts. I'm not disputing the BHI findings, but they aren't all made in one place, so quality is also going to differ from supplier to supplier. China is a big place! I've never seen wear like that on a clutch (sliding pinion) in the BHI picture, on any movement I've worked on and there have been many! As they say, 'One swallow a summer doesn't make'. 

Granted, the lyre springs are a bit questionable, but from that fault, they learn how to push out the main plate Inca setting enough to replace the spring as though it really was a captive spring like an ETA 6497 and also disassemble the whole balance assembly to replace the balance lyre spring in the correct manner.

If someone asked me what watch movement to first work on, it would always be a fully working movement to understand slowly how a big movement is meant to work to its optimum. Working on 'scrappers' is great for manual dexterity skills, but frustrating, as already mentioned, if you think you're getting it going with little experience and knowledge. It can make watchmaking really unenjoyable, self-defeating, and with nothing to show apart from broken parts in lots of pots. I was first shown and taught old pocket watches that had 80 years of tinkerers before me playing and fiddling with them and only found my passion again in wristwatches that worked or I could get working and find parts for. I'm not slating pocket watches, I just think they are niche for some rather than the mainstream. A working movement will better teach a student how it works, why it works in that way, the optimum end shake, side shake, amplitude, etc, and when it doesn't work in that correct way later down the line or in other movements then one is more experienced and knowledgable from the working movements to now remedy the ailing ones.

[pent]

On 7/31/2023 at 5:00 PM, JohnR725 said:

Not necessarily the younger generation but a variety contributing factors like YouTube. Look how easy and simple it is to disassemble clean and reassemble.

It would be really interesting with YouTube videos if somebody was doing there usual disassembly cleaning reassembly and? And if they would stop and say oh we have a problem okay we will need to diagnose the problem. Then once that's diagnosed they fix the problem and possibly re-clean reassemble do you ever see that in a video?

So yes I find it troubling with the videos that make it look so simple people want to practice on live watches. My reference that watch repair is like learning to be a doctor but typically doctors don't start on live patients. Typically doctors get the practice a lot before they touch a live patients. But yes were now in the instant gratification world of I want to start on something right now like my Rolex or great grandpa's watch that the family would disown me if I destroyed it and I have these videos and what's the worst that could happen.

Chronoglide watchmakers on Youtube does a live stream disassembly and troubleshooting every without any prior work or inspection--completely cold.  It has been really valuable in seeing in real time what he's discovering about the piece he just received for service/restoration.  I think he spends a little bit too much time chatting, but he does try to answer as many questions as possible while he's doing it.  I found it very helpful to see that even a professional sometimes has to struggle with disassembly or diagnosis to make a quote for the customer.

On the downside, he never shows reassembly, part creation, or polishing.  Bummer for anyone who wants to see the entire process, but I have learned a lot about troubleshooting just by watching his initial, unscripted diagnosis.  He also has quite a comprehensive series of videos on everything from staking to jeweling to poising.

It's one of the better channels because, as JohnR725 states, many other channels edit their videos to make it look like everything went smoothly and took an hour, which I understand is more entertaining, but far from the truth.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, Jon said:

but they aren't all made in one place, so quality is also going to differ from supplier to supplier.

 

I was thinking about this discussion this morning something from the past and something I was doing in the morning. Typically almost never wear a wristwatch except if I'm going to some holiday party or something just so I have a watch on but I needed to know the time so which watch should I wear? So I grabbed this one rather than getting a Christmas bonus of cash everybody at work on a choice of a watch and I ended up with this one

as you can see it's impressive it says Paris but I'm like 99.99% positive it's Chinese. Usually if they sliced up a Swiss version you'll still see the caliber number under the balance wheel in this definitely looks Chinese. Size they can will my gift disintegrate with in my lifetime? I don't wear it every day so we may never know how long it takes to disintegrate but they sell a lot of those watches are they all disintegrating in two years?

then I was thinking about what I was teaching at the hobby school we were using these as training movements. Not this exact watch by the way but the ones off of eBay although I believe some of ours came directly from China. I vaguely recall looking up the movement and this bird back C come from several different factories I believe each of the factors of slightly different part numbers but are we lumping all the watches into the exact same category? Could there be any difference in the quality because typically with a lot of Chinese stuff to does tend to be differences in quality.

 

[bwat]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:19 PM, JohnR725 said:

Yes they do produce a lot of cheap stuff and send it at prices that I is Belief. Although somewhat I've seen that when the Chinese ship the government subsidizes the shipping cost.

If the following  YouTube video is true, then you're right, the government subsidises the shipping costs, but not the government you might think.  Five minutes ago I checked my mailbox as my replacement ST36 should be here any day. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you all for playing your part to keep my direct shipping costs down. As for the video, the real meat of it begins 4 minutes in.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by bwat

[Neverenoughwatches]

38 minutes ago, bwat said:

If the following  YouTube video is true, then you're right, the government subsidises the shipping costs, but not the government you might think.  Five minutes ago I checked my mailbox as my replacement ST36 should be here any day. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you all for playing your part to keep my direct shipping costs down. As for the video, the real meat of it begins 4 minutes in.

 

As embarrassing and non professional as the information is, if its true then China continues to take the proverbial p.iss. Crack on china lets hope more of your shite ends up in your landfill than in ours

Edited August 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, bwat said:

If the following  YouTube video is true, then you're right, the government subsidises the shipping costs, but not the government you might think.

strangely enough that's the same YouTube person who I learned that China is subsidized postage.

what's interesting is things have changed again in China. So for those not familiar with this person he came from South Africa moved to China taught English for many many years and did a YouTube channel. Plus he found somebody else doing a channel and together they would do things together

so when they were there they would in general just film the people the scenery avoid politics not rock the boat and I felt they always painted a really nice picture of China and the people avoiding to governments. Until the government was stupid and chased them out and now they are talking about the stupidity and how evil and bad the Chinese government is.

So as much much earlier video was he was going to do T-shirts for his viewing audience. Had them printed up went to the post office and discovered how astronomically huge shipping was? Because the sun so many videos I don't see the other one but basically if you are Chinese the government subsidized your shipping and if you weren't they didn't and the shipping then was very expensive. Obviously the Chinese of figured out a way of offloading that cost on the rest of the world.

[dadistic]

Check out the Wikipedia article on the Universal Postal Union, the international group that coordinates postal remuneration for international letters and packages. The short of it is, those countries that send more than they receive usually won under the rules that were in effect for many, many years. There have been recent changes, and China lost much of its advantage as a sender. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union