Elgin 0's grade 219

[KenneyKev]

Hi all

I purchased an Elgin as a starter project (didn't realise how small it was lol). Are there any manuals/layout diagrams for these as I think someone had already tried to get it running. I believe some of the springs are in the wrong position as when you have it stripped down everything seems free but when the plates go back on nothing wants to move (I took photos by stages so everything went back ad removed).

Any help or advice appreciated 

Cheers

Kev

[Nucejoe]

Do you get any torque from the barrel?    

American watches have safety pinion incorporated with mainspring, which you can find many articles about in interweb.

Manually add power to gears you have easy access to, to check power  transmission in gear train.

Do all arbours have good pivot and check end shake on all.

Your watch will be happy to hear advice from  JohnR  microphone. 

Good luck pal.

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, KenneyKev said:

(didn't realise how small it was lol)

to help with the size problem I've attached a PDF. Although it doesn't help with the classic problem of? The classic problem is looking at YouTube videos where they have the watch filling your screen it looks so big and then we get the actual watch it's not as big as that it's really small and all the bits and pieces are small and have a habit of falling onto the floor and never being seen again which typically never shows up on the videos.

looking at your pictures here's something it will help you little bit don't put the pallet fork in until almost the end. it's one of the annoyances I have with YouTube videos where the first thing they put in is the pallet fork and bridge and that is really stupid because the pallet fork bridge is separate and should go in just before the balance wheel. Makes it a lot easier to verify that the train wheels are in because you can wind the watch and see if the gear train spins which you can't do with the pallet fork in. So pallet fork goes in just before the balance wheel and they are at the very end of the assembly process

59 minutes ago, KenneyKev said:

re there any manuals/layout diagrams

pocket watch service manuals for the most part do not exist. Parts book exists some of them with pictures. But he requested pocket watch service manual at the link below is a military training book it's really good book to have you will find service information for some 16 size watches much better choice to start with. But basically that's it for pocket watch service manual's.

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

1 hour ago, KenneyKev said:

(I took photos by stages so everything went back ad removed).

I assume the photos are of disassembly not of reassembly?

1 hour ago, KenneyKev said:

I purchased an Elgin as a starter project

the problem with using an American pocket watch as a starter project is especially when it's an older watch like this creative ways that the watch company did to do things versus later watches were there more standard. Like your setting components those are different art they that can lead to confusion plus I need you to take something off and get a photograph of the other side for me something doesn't look right I circled what I need a photograph of the other side of

one of the things you might do right now in addition to that would be to take the balance wheel out and also take the pallet fork out with each bridge we can see if the gear train spins and eventually when you hopefully we get things winding you can wind it see the train spin then we can worry about the pallet fork and balance wheel is always best to keep things in separate steps. Just like with pocket watches when it does get together and running you do not put the hands and dial on you let it run for at least a day or two before you case it up. I often see people eagerly casing up their watches only to find that they don't run for a long enough time now it has come all apart again

then the reason why a want to see the other side that part is it appears to be missing something which shouldn't be missing at all. Underneath the horse or three gears the whole thing pivots on the center part in that goes on the milling of the plate on each end are gears that ride on what exactly the lower one rides on a steel post on that part the upper one rides on the nonexistent steel post because now as a hole where there should be a post the same as the other end?

oh your serial number gets us this

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/10436209

then parts book

http://www.watchrepairinfo.com/1915ElginMaster.pdf

interesting website where you can look up watch parts specifically Elgin only

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

from the catalog and from the website up above were looking for a specific part like this one and no notice your catalog basically is line drawings which also explains why you probably don't have a really nice color service manual for this watch

it's a little hard to tell but there is a hole in the middle which you have for the screw is a post for a year on one side and there is no post on the other side? This will get you started

 

 

 

 

 

watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf

[KenneyKev]

Hi JohnR725

Thanks very much for the reply. I think whoever had it before me had already taken things apart, hence I wasn't sure if things were correct.

I'll take the picture when I'm back at home (now away for a week). The other thing I found was the cock arm was just loose under the main spring housing which is another reason I think its been played with.

The photos are what I took on disassembly.

Thanks for the links.

Regards

Kev

Also

Is this spring on rhe wrong side of the pin?

[KenneyKev]

Hi all

John here's the pic you requested. Tried removing the balance and pallet fork as suggested and the movement seems free, once the pallet fork goes on it stops it moving although the fork is free moving. I've also noticed when I wind it up, the main spring housing doesn't move.

Cheers

Kev

[JohnR725]

Okay it looks a little different than the ones I usually see but looks like the gears actually ar riding on something so it should function just fine so that concern is gone.

Is looking at your pictures again and yes the Springs on the wrong side because when I go way up to the top you can see the spring is doing nothing at all is not touching the pin

13 minutes ago, KenneyKev said:

once the pallet fork goes on it stops it moving although the fork is free moving. I've also noticed when I wind it up, the main spring housing doesn't move.

Okay confusing terminology the mainspring barrel as the arbor the spring the barrel itself. As you wind the watch you should see the gears on the bottom dial side rotate and if the pallet fork is in you'll probably see nothing else. If the pallet fork is out so the train can spin than the barrel losing will rotate the arbor winds the spring that moves the entire barrel assembly and with nothing to stop it it will rotate. If the fork is in you then should be double blind up the mainspring but the barrel itself should stay stationary he'll only move very very slowly as the watches running. Hopefully that makes sense? I basically interpreting that is not winding the mainspring up and that's why the pallet fork is loose

Okay snipped out another image unfortunately he gets stuck with a lot of detective work of analyzing what's going on and vintage American pocket watches are confusing. So in a image attached the pink circled object is missing? I'm hoping that's just a clerical mistake and it's not really missing. This should be your click for the ratchet wheel you can wind the mainspring without that normally ratchet wheels are in different places but in a pocket watch this is it and it's hidden this makes it hard to see if it actually winding the spring or not but you definitely have to have a click here.

Then the part that I circled in light blue. This is where things get confusing when the pocket watches out of the case it should be  in setting and when you push the? By the way what are you using to try to wind your watch? Normally we doing pocket watches you have a set a bench key is there's three of them they have a square piece on each end that you can insert in to wind and set your pocket watch than a case with nothing inside in the watch out of the case it's in setting you put it back in the case it should be in winding. And that is accomplished by this and the spring on the other size will have to be in the right place. So insert something in it should shift from setting to winding and then you should bill the turn and the ratchet wheel should turn but you can't see that because it's buried between the watch plates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KenneyKev]

Think there may be something missing off the balance wheel, should this have something that moves the pallet fork?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, KenneyKev said:

Think there may be something missing off the balance wheel, should this have something that moves the pallet fork?

It does appear to be that you have a missing or broken roller jewel. I don't suppose there's any of it left in the hole?

[KenneyKev]

There is a tiny bit sticking out ( or appears to be anyway), I'll try and get a better picture.

[KenneyKev]

Having had another look, it appears to be missing completely.

[JohnR725]

On 7/19/2023 at 6:14 AM, KenneyKev said:

I purchased an Elgin as a starter project

Here's an interesting discussion

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/27054-working-with-a-seagull-st36-movement

First project watch versus what you're doing? On the other hand look at all the nice stuff your learning

the reason I was hoping there was a little piece left was that you could measure that now you going to have to measure the slot in the pallet fork ideally with the proper tool that you don't have in order to figure out what size jewel we need and then you're going to need a bunch of tools that you don't have to put the jewel in. Then no you cannot look up to jewel itself because they varied with time to a certain degree.

But let me go look at the parts list and see what it says

Oh look we got a part number but unless we have a time machine and we can go back in time it's going to be somewhat worthless so now I have to go to the parts book and see if I get a specification so you can look forward jewel otherwise you have to measure it.

Then good for me and look to see where you'd posted this if you posted it in the safe zone for newbies I can't refer you to any place else at least that's the rule now I can say go look for how to replace a roller jewel in the discussion group but that would probably be a waste of time as you probably never find it anyway people don't always title things appropriately

Okay as I suspected back to the parts page on the bottom which I already knew considerable variation in size. Also because this is a single roller in need a long jewel that means you can't use probably a modern replacement will need a vintage roller jewel of the correct size. +1915 Elgin's parts book doesn't actually list the ruler jewels? I'm not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there I'm just not seeing it. Seeing as how I gave you the link to the parts book can look yourself there may be another section like in the back where they have the roller jewel assortments we can get a size but it's probably best in real life to measure it.

Not entirely helpful but pocketwatch database gives us this

Oh and if the balance wheel engage the pallet fork previously it means that it did have a roller jewel originally and it may be lurking around wherever you're working? So yes you're looking for something really tiny that's shiny probably clear edition color and as you might find it. I find dealing with roller jewel's a pain in the ass I did that last week and In-state at least within the benchtop and I finally got it in as I can proceed with the watch is working on but they do tend to be a pain. Then no you can't do a balance complete because there aren't really any balance completes for watch like this and you have to fit your balance complete to the watch so it's best to replace the roller jewel

Let me know if you would like to proceed with replacing the roller jewel or whether you want to set the watch aside and practice on something else. Because you need a variety of tools to replace this all of which are useful if you're going to work on pocket watches in the future. But the unfortunate problem watch repair is a lot of us tools that only an occasional use because if you're lucky you don't have your roller jewel falling out that often

Okay I was thinking about something so website he has roller jewel's so we just need the diameter and you just helmets for a single roller specific size to tell them what you have and you'll get you the right one but we still need a diameter

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/Jewels.html

Then at the very top of this page is the combination tool last time I needed a replacement one of these I just found nice one on eBay. But really need one of these and if you scroll down the page is a nice image showing what the combination tool is

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/JewelSetting.html

It also no need and alcohol lamp and some shellac. If you use another source a heat but alcohol lamp works the best. As anything warmer tends to be an issue.

Okay of the top of this page is a roller jewel gauge you need one of those.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/Measuring.html

Then it might be worth a try because Dave has pocket watch parts is to tell him the watch you have the size of it and you need a roller jewel and who knows maybe help guestimate the size you need. Otherwise you need to get the gauge to figure out what you're supposed to have.

 

 

 

 

[KenneyKev]

Hi John, think it may be best to park this for now, and hopefully come back ti it. The watch wasn't working when I got it so maybe that another thing whoever had it first had done.

I have started on a Hebdomas (much larger lol), again someone has already "had a go" although I've stripped most of it and cleaned it up. All put back together (still waiting for the oil I ordered to arrive), and this one is now running, albeit not as well as it should. I've started a new topic on it.

Thanks for all your help on the Elgin, hopefully with practise on others I can come back to it and get it to come back to life.

Cheers

Kev

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, KenneyKev said:

think it may be best to park this for now, and hopefully come back ti it

Somewhere in the group we were discussing what was the first watch people should work on. I was thinking about this particular discussion where you start with a pocket watch with the intent of repairing it. Only discover that all kinds of additional tools are now needed to complete a repair. Oh and then when I was thinking about it again were still missing a few more tools you need. Plus you're also doing a whole bunch a repair stuff that you're not ready to do.

Important other lessons to learn in watch repair are like for instance this one when is it time to stop and set the watch aside for future date outstanding lesson. Or a really important one to remember when not to take a priceless family heirloom because it just needs a simple cleaning and what will happen if it doesn't need a simple cleaning and it no longer works will you still have a family?

Yes that question comes up from time to time.

The

[KenneyKev]

Hi all

Com8ng back to this watch again after I've invested in a shiny new microscope. JohnR725 at one point you asked me if there was any of the jewel left in the hole, well I can confirm yes there is!! so  all I need to do now is get all of the tools needed (even struggling on ebay to find a pallet warming tool), a new jewel plenty of patience and try a fix lol. I've attached photos of the broken bit.

Regards

Kev

[nevenbekriev]

 I will try to show in a video how to make impulse jewel out of glass strip. This is not so hard to do, just propane torch-lighter needed and some fine diamond disk or file.

[KenneyKev]

31 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

 I will try to show in a video how to make impulse jewel out of glass strip. This is not so hard to do, just propane torch-lighter needed and some fine diamond disk or file.

Thank you

[JohnR725]

The pallet tool does show up on eBay although I suppose it depends upon which country are in? You're looking for something that looks like this

[KenneyKev]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The pallet tool does show up on eBay although I suppose it depends upon which country are in? You're looking for something that looks like this

Thank you

I've only ever seen 1 for sale and that was in the states, suppose I need to be patient, one will come up eventually 

And just like that one came up today lol, it's on its way