Bent wheels

[Neverenoughwatches]

Morning watch peeps from the UK, i hope we are all well.  I'm just asking for a little technique advice/method with straightening the drive wheel of an indirect centre seconds. This is the extra 5 spoked wheel attached to the third wheel shaft on top on the train bridge. Its quite wobbly, looks like a previous repairer has removed it via its outside edges and bent one end up. A pair of homemade micro levers under the hub does the job without damage. The drive wheel is making an intermittent skip with the mesh of the center seconds pinion ( a noticeable wobble) . Ive confirmed that it is the wheel and not the shaft that is bent. I've tried to straighten on a staking block even by pushing the hub into a wide hole to over compensate for the bend returning to shape. Does anyone have a safe method before i resort to gripping with pliers and bending out. I've thought about mounting on a shaft to set into truing calipers.  Tia.

[nickelsilver]

I hold the wheel in a lever type jeweling tool, between a pusher and a stump on the wheel hub. You can turn it by finger and see where it's high/low, then adjust with stout brass or nickel tweezers gently bending until it turns flat. If it's flat in the tool, it should be flat in the watch, unless the hub has gotten tweeked in the wheel (rare), or if the extended pivot it fits to is bent (common).

[Neverenoughwatches]

53 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I hold the wheel in a lever type jeweling tool, between a pusher and a stump on the wheel hub. You can turn it by finger and see where it's high/low, then adjust with stout brass or nickel tweezers gently bending until it turns flat. If it's flat in the tool, it should be flat in the watch, unless the hub has gotten tweeked in the wheel (rare), or if the extended pivot it fits to is bent (common).

Brilliant thanks Nicklesilver, thats a great technique, i was trying to think of a flat platform to work off and still be able to use a bending tool. The wheel is visably bent out on it own but It has crossed my mind more than once that it is the pivot as well, i think  i need another closer inspection now that you've mentioned that as well. Thank you

[Nucejoe]

If its any consolation, I say, indirect center second mess is the culprit kind of pain..  watch detroyers create. 

Is this a pricy watch your working on? 

Rgds

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

If its any consolation, I say, indirect center second mess is the culprit kind of pain..  watch detroyers create. 

Is this a pricy watch your working on? 

Rgds

 

i know that feeling i broke the pivot on one 18 months ago, I'm pleased to say i learnt my lesson and this one is not my doing. No its not of any value really, something I've been back and forwards on harvesting parts for a few weeks in beween organising stock space in my watchroom. Its had a fair few issues this is just another to add to the list. Also looks like a bit of a design flaw, the pinion of the second hand sweep sits quite low in the bridge, should have had a bit more depth to it to engage better with the drive wheel. Just wondering if it has been pushed lower by a heavy handed second hand setter. 

[mikepilk]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I've thought about mounting on a shaft to set into truing calipers.  Tia.

I've just assembled an ETA 2879 which had a wobbly sweep second wheel. As the pivots are small I managed to use my truing calipers. It's not easy to get the such a thin wheel perfectly flat - it runs close to other wheels/bridge in this movement. In the end I bought one from Cousins as they're only £7.

8 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I hold the wheel in a lever type jeweling tool, between a pusher and a stump on the wheel hub. You can turn it by finger and see where it's high/low, then adjust with stout brass or nickel tweezers 

I hadn't thought of using the jewelling tool - great idea.

What about wheels with larger pivots - I guess you could hold them between two concave punches on a staking set?

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I hadn't thought of using the jewelling tool - great idea.

What about wheels with larger pivots - I guess you could hold them between two concave punches on a staking set?

For something with big pivots, not holes like the sweep wheel, I have truing calipers that will take them (dozen or so different, some with replaceable nibs so they can be made as needed), but for instances where those are too small like center wheels on a pocket watch, I use a depthing tool, or put the wheel up between centers in a dead center lathe.

 

Depthing tools in watch sizes are plentiful and cheap, don't count on them for depthing, but for truing a wheel they're great! Clock size depthing tools on the other hand... expensive!

 

My 8th grade English teacher would literally kill me for the first  paragraph.

[VWatchie]

58 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

My 8th grade English teacher would literally kill me for the first  paragraph.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

hadn't thought of using the jewelling tool - great idea

Well that was an interesting little game. I set the wheel up in a horia type jewelling tool using a stump that nicely fitted the hub of one side and a jewel pusher that fitted the rivet on the opposite side of the drive wheel. This gave a nice even free wheeling wheel as tight or as loose as i wanted . I needed an index to work to as the bend was actually only slight ( which now leads me back to a possible bent pivot as well ) i decided a physical sacrifice was called for, so a very small nick in the nail of my forefinger and pressed up against the stump served rather well. Held up at eye level with plenty of light and a x10 loupe, just pushing past horizonal to straighen. Did it work ? Bloody right it did, not perfect but much better than it was.Nicklesilver you're a diamond great tip. Now to check for a bent pivot.

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

but for instances where those are too small like center wheels on a pocket watch, I use a depthing tool. 

I see these all the time on ebay, now i have an excuse to buy one

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

My 8th grade English teacher would literally kill me for the first  paragraph.

And i thought i was the king of commas

[Jon]

13 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I hold the wheel in a lever type jeweling tool, between a pusher and a stump on the wheel hub. You can turn it by finger and see where it's high/low, then adjust with stout brass or nickel tweezers gently bending until it turns flat. If it's flat in the tool, it should be flat in the watch, unless the hub has gotten tweaked in the wheel (rare), or if the extended pivot it fits to is bent (common).

Nice tip! I tend to put it on a staking block with the hub inside a hole and judge what is high and what is low then transfer the wheel onto a piece of soft wood or even thick leather with a small hole in to accommodate the hub and push down on the high spots whilst keeping the wheel flat, but I think I'll try your way next time.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

I tend to put it on a staking block with the hub inside a hole and judge what is high and what is low

Thats exactly how I started my attempt but keeping track of the bend was difficult, putting in a horia worked really well. The depthing tool sounds better.

[Jon]

 

 

 

I posted some of these slides from a lesson I take on an indirectly driven sweep second movement. I hope it help anyone. I really should post the set of lessons on a sweep seconds movement sometime soon. The Bifora (Bidlingmaier) 934 has a great rocking bar winding system, which isn't usual to see, as seen in the last two slides

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Jon said:

 

 

 

I posted some of these slides from a lesson I take on an indirectijly driven sweep second movement. I hope it help anyone. I really should post the set of lessons on a sweep seconds movement sometime soon. The Bifora (Bidlingmaier) 934 has a great rocking bar winding system, which isn't usual to see, as seen in the last two slides

 

Very useful Jon thanks. i think you've posted the use of a mainspring to remove the  drive wheel before, handy tip. I had made some miniature levers for removing collets a while ago which made a good job of lifting it. The cs pinion sits really low on mine, i think its been previously forced down the arbor by someone installing the second  hand. The wobbly drive wheel was skipping it's mesh with the pinion because of. Your diagram illustrates perfectly how the positioning heights should be, mine is way off that.

[caseback]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:49 AM, nickelsilver said:

I hold the wheel in a lever type jeweling tool, between a pusher and a stump on the wheel hub. You can turn it by finger and see where it's high/low, then adjust with stout brass or nickel tweezers gently bending until it turns flat. If it's flat in the tool, it should be flat in the watch, unless the hub has gotten tweeked in the wheel (rare), or if the extended pivot it fits to is bent (common).

Had the same problem with a Tissot wheel and came up with this solution (pump pusher in collet and a whatyoumightcallit in the tailstock)  and later found this thread . Used the toolrest as a reference point.

Edited March 15 by caseback

[rehajm]

…I will have to practice the mainspring method. I never had an issue with the five spoke tool until recently when I used it to pull off the wheel while the hub remained on the pivot, to disastrous results

Edited March 15 by rehajm

[mikepilk]

31 minutes ago, rehajm said:

…I will have to practice the mainspring method. I never had an issue until recently when I used it to pull off the wheel while the hub remained on the pivot, to disastrous results

Kalle at Chronoglide (I cannot find the video) showed a method where he used two pieces of pegwood sharpened to fine chisel points to push under the hub. I think he showed that you can also just twist the wheel to get it off by pushing the spokes on either side with pegwood, gently working back and forth until it loosens. 

I bought one of these (before I had seen Kalle's method with pegwood  )

Edited March 15 by mikepilk

[rehajm]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

I bought one of these (before I had seen Kalle's method with pegwood

…we have fun with the economic suicide of Bergeon products but I’m mesmerized by the angle of that tool - it looks quite useful…

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, caseback said:

Had the same problem with a Tissot wheel and came up with this solution (pump pusher in collet and a whatyoumightcallit in the tailstock)  and later found this thread . Used the toolrest as a reference point.

Whatever works Cees is good, i liked the jewelling tool. It was easy to reference the wobble with just a finger perched somewhere on the frame, i used a finger also to straighten out the wheel, just like truing a balance wheel. 

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

…I will have to practice the mainspring method. I never had an issue with the five spoke tool until recently when I used it to pull off the wheel while the hub remained on the pivot, to disastrous results

Wow. I now have a couple of the presto type wheel removers. I add a drop of thin oil or parafin to the pivot an hour before I pull the wheel off. If you can twist the wheel a tad at the same time it helps it to slip its friction .

[Jon]

On 3/15/2025 at 10:45 AM, mikepilk said:

I bought one of these (before I had seen Kalle's method with pegwood  )

One of my students swears by this tool and it looks good in action and safer by the looks of it than the five spoke wheel removal tool by Presto, but I can't say I've ever had a problem using my Vintage Presto and I take off a lot of 'wheel over thirds' (that's what I call them - in most vintage chronograph there's a 'wheel over fourth') I reckon it's because it's pretty old and made in a much better manner with some longevity in mind as well as being more sturdy. The same tools made by Bergeon now I don't think they are as good in my experience

[nickelsilver]

I find that most upper third wheels are too close to the bridge to use the Bergeon 6016.

[LittleWatchShop]

37 minutes ago, Jon said:

One of my students swears by this tool and it looks good in action and safer by the looks of it than the five spoke wheel removal tool by Presto, but I can't say I've ever had a problem using my Vintage Presto and I take off a lot of 'wheel over thirds' (that's what I call them - in most vintage chronograph there's a 'wheel over fourth') I reckon it's because it's pretty old and made in a much better manner with some longevity in mind as well as being more sturdy. The same tools made by Bergeon now I don't think they are as good in my experience

My Dad left this tool to me. While it looks good in principle, i have never found it useful.

I use the PrestoDfor 5-spoke wheels.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I find that most upper third wheels are too close to the bridge to use the Bergeon 6016.

That's what I found, but it does have other uses.  Next time I will try Kalle's method of two pieces of pegwood sharpened to chisel points, eased under from both sides.