Pallet Fork staff and cock hole alignment

[kd8tzc]

I'm hoping someone with more experience can help me with one thing that really gives me fits and I struggle with.  Anytime I install the pallet fork, I have a heck of a time installing the cock and getting the staff to line up with it. 

With the watch I have been working with the past few days, adjusting the pallet stones, I just really struggle with it.  It seems that when I place the staff in the lower hole of the plate, the lever part of it (with the long stem and horns, etc) tends to touch the plate, so that when I go to place the cock on it, the staff is not pointing perfectly straight up.  I then have to play games to get it into the hole on the cock.  As a side note, this is only a 7 jewel watch, so there is no jewel that this sits in, just metal.

Is there a better/easier way to approach this vs just fumbling around trying to get the staff to go into the upper hole by sheer luck?

[JohnR725]

No pictures to show us what you're working on?

4 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

the staff is not pointing perfectly straight up

Typically when putting bridges on you'll have to move whatever's underneath it around to get it to go into the hole. Other than the assembly line videos on YouTube of assembling modern watches were the gears are placed in place the plate drops on top 100% of the time it's seldom works for us.

So basically you put the part in place put the bridge on top without any force that it moved apart around until it goes into the hole and then put the plate down. Then make sure it actually is in the hole by verifying the pivot is still there before tightening the screw. Otherwise if it had a jewel you might hear a really interesting cracking sound that will haunt you forever. Yes the mistakes we make for a young you never forget. By the way the cracking sound I can hear is the jewel that I was breaking on a pallet fork pivot.  you just need to practice more

then yes we all struggle I was doing a pin lever watches  yesterday spent quite a bit of time which was more than an hour just trying to get the gear train and I can get everything but the escape wheel. The other wheels basically did go in when the plate was on top but it wouldn't and because it's a zero jewel movement the whole is super tiny is really hard to see where it even was when I'm moving the escape wheel around and because it's a vintage pin lever I didn't want to break anything so I just took my time and felt frustrated and finally it worked out the watches running beautifully.

 

 

[kd8tzc]

Okay, I had a feeling you were going to say that.  What I really have a hard time with is lifting that lever up a bit to try and push the pivot back (and hopefully into the hole).

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then make sure it actually is in the hole by verifying the pivot is still there before tightening the screw. Otherwise if it had a jewel you might hear a really interesting cracking sound that will haunt you forever.

Been there and did that... with this watch about a month ago.  I had to get a whole new escape wheel from a parts watch because of it.

[JohnR725]

Sometimes with pallet forks because the really light they will stay in place and he can put the bridge on. But usually they will fall in some direction. I find sometimes using a clean oiler to manipulate the fork works rather than trying to grab it with tweezers. The other thing to check is how well the bridge fits. Often times of the bridge is really really tight then putting things under it becomes a much bigger issue because it makes it a lot harder to tell if the pivots are in is your feeling of the putting the bridge down.

9 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I had to get a whole new escape wheel from a parts watch because of it.

It's why I contemplated why do I like watch repair When I spent a couple hours trying to put together a simple watch.

[kd8tzc]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

find sometimes using a clean oiler to manipulate the fork works rather than trying to grab it with tweezers

Thanks for the tip... I forget I have these extra oilers that I can use for other things besides oiling.  I do have this poker that I use quite a bit that is made from some peg wood and a needle, but that has a larger diameter than the oiler.

[ManSkirtBrew]

15 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I forget I have these extra oilers that I can use for other things besides oiling

Same here. I recently had the idea to run the shaft of a broken black oiler (the finest one) over the stone I use for dressing my screwdrivers and hone it to a fine point. Then I put a slight bend in it, and I'm finding constant new uses for it.

It's great for sneaking under bridges to align pivot holes. It's got a little spring to it, so it's super gentle, making it great for things like pushing the pallet fork back and forth when spreading lubricant on the escape wheel teeth. But it's also stiff enough to align parts and spin wheels.

It's also fine enough to work as a an automatic oiler for cap jewels that you can't or would rather not remove.

I keep it stuck in a piece of pithwood that I hot-glued to my oiler stand so it's always at hand.

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Thanks for the tip... I forget I have these extra oilers that I can use for other things besides oiling.  I do have this poker that I use quite a bit that is made from some peg wood and a needle, but that has a larger diameter than the oiler.

Get yourself some acupuncture needles less than a tenner for a box of a hundred. The diameter ranges from 0.3mm down to 0.18mm the points are extremely small and thin. They fit very easily into the workings of the movement and small enough to seperate the coils of a hairspring. Their uses are endless.

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Sometimes with pallet forks because the really light they will stay in place and he can put the bridge on. But usually they will fall in some direction. I find sometimes using a clean oiler to manipulate the fork works rather than trying to grab it with tweezers. The other thing to check is how well the bridge fits. Often times of the bridge is really really tight then putting things under it becomes a much bigger issue because it makes it a lot harder to tell if the pivots are in is your feeling of the putting the bridge down.

OK, so we are talking about the PALLET FORK and not the balance wheel.  I think John's response clarifies that for me.

I use John's technique, but I nudge with closed tweezers and not an oiler.  Same difference though the oiler will be more forgiving.

With my other hand, I use pegwood and GENTLY apply pressure as I nudge.  This method works flawlessly for me and I have never broken a pivot or any other element of the pallet fork.  Generally I will start one screw so that I have a head start stabilizing the bridge when I have it properly seated.  On any plate or bridge, I use pegwood to stabilize while installing/setting screws.

WITH THE EXCEPTION that John noted.  Sometimes the posts on the bridge make for a tight fit.  Why they do that???  Then it is very scary for me.  I use the same technique mostly but put the screws into the two bridge holes and gently and evenly screw them down to get the planarity of the bridge started,  then with the pegwood and push down each corner of the triangle that is formed while nudging the pallet fork to line up.  When the pivot lines up, I hold the bridge in position while and tighten the screws.  Sometimes, I put it under the microscope where I am able to see the top pivot clearly and I know when it is aligned.

Patience is the order of the day.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, I had a feeling you were going to say that.  What I really have a hard time with is lifting that lever up a bit to try and push the pivot back (and hopefully into the hole).

Been there and did that... with this watch about a month ago.  I had to get a whole new escape wheel from a parts watch because of it.

John mentions tight fitting bridges and cocks, often because of the steady ( locating )pins not fitting well. This can alter your perception of how much pressure to apply to the bridge and can suddenly reach home while trying to fit the pivots in place. If you know they are going to be tight then work them on and off a few times in dry runs before the final fitting. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Why they do that??? 

I tend to think it's a manufacturing defect. Sometimes it may be a minor alignment issue other times things aren't just not quite the right size. But it becomes very scary if you grasp you're having a problem with the plates you take out all the wheels in try to fit the plate requires a lot of force then the likelihood that your Going to have a successful happy day decreases dramatically.

Did you know there's a golden rule that you never modify the watch to fit the replacement parts. This even came up a discussion somewhere else that went to modify the balance arm to fit their new staff which was probably wrong. For any of us that had to deal with the watches been modified we do not have happy thoughts about the person who did the because now it's a nightmare to deal with the problem

but what about modifying the watch so that it fits better?

I think somewhere recently were discussing pin devices and one of the pin devices I bought earlier my life I didn't like because it comes together as a nice though basically Lake took the circular part and they just cut and X through it and the inside edges are very sharp and it's not the best for holding round things. It's why like the barrel arbor pin devices better for holding round things. But why is it become one of my most useful at times pin vice because it can do something. If you want I can get pictures.

I find that if things don't fit right not the part but the watch itself doesn't fit right because the posts is steady alignment pins don't seem to do right I take my pin vice and grab the post or pin as tight as I can and I turn in the sharp edges of the pin vice gently planes off of very minuscule amount of metal. And then I tried the plate again and then the plate fits fine it's not too loose so don't take off too much metal you just take off the hair of metal in fact a here is probably too thick and now the plate fits without having to risk breaking things.

Don't know if that violates the Golden rule are not the golden rule is don't modify the watch for the replacement part but I'm just modifying the watch so that the plates will go together without snapping all the pivots Off.

[LittleWatchShop]

30 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I take my pin vice and grab the post or pin as tight as I can and I turn in the sharp edges of the pin vice gently planes off of very minuscule amount of metal.

I thought about doing this but never have.  Something to further ponder next time it shows up.

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to think it's a manufacturing defect. Sometimes it may be a minor alignment issue other times things aren't just not quite the right size. But it becomes very scary if you grasp you're having a problem with the plates you take out all the wheels in try to fit the plate requires a lot of force then the likelihood that your Going to have a successful happy day decreases dramatically.

Did you know there's a golden rule that you never modify the watch to fit the replacement parts. This even came up a discussion somewhere else that went to modify the balance arm to fit their new staff which was probably wrong. For any of us that had to deal with the watches been modified we do not have happy thoughts about the person who did the because now it's a nightmare to deal with the problem

but what about modifying the watch so that it fits better?

I think somewhere recently were discussing pin devices and one of the pin devices I bought earlier my life I didn't like because it comes together as a nice though basically Lake took the circular part and they just cut and X through it and the inside edges are very sharp and it's not the best for holding round things. It's why like the barrel arbor pin devices better for holding round things. But why is it become one of my most useful at times pin vice because it can do something. If you want I can get pictures.

I find that if things don't fit right not the part but the watch itself doesn't fit right because the posts is steady alignment pins don't seem to do right I take my pin vice and grab the post or pin as tight as I can and I turn in the sharp edges of the pin vice gently planes off of very minuscule amount of metal. And then I tried the plate again and then the plate fits fine it's not too loose so don't take off too much metal you just take off the hair of metal in fact a here is probably too thick and now the plate fits without having to risk breaking things.

Don't know if that violates the Golden rule are not the golden rule is don't modify the watch for the replacement part but I'm just modifying the watch so that the plates will go together without snapping all the pivots Off.

Good use of a sharp pinvice john i like it.  I will admit i have used a smoothing broach in the steady pin holes to free up some tightness. Like you said it has to the closest thing to nothing to remove.

43 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to think it's a manufacturing defect. Sometimes it may be a minor alignment issue other times things aren't just not quite the right size. But it becomes very scary if you grasp you're having a problem with the plates you take out all the wheels in try to fit the plate requires a lot of force then the likelihood that your Going to have a successful happy day decreases dramatically.

Did you know there's a golden rule that you never modify the watch to fit the replacement parts. This even came up a discussion somewhere else that went to modify the balance arm to fit their new staff which was probably wrong. For any of us that had to deal with the watches been modified we do not have happy thoughts about the person who did the because now it's a nightmare to deal with the problem

but what about modifying the watch so that it fits better?

I think somewhere recently were discussing pin devices and one of the pin devices I bought earlier my life I didn't like because it comes together as a nice though basically Lake took the circular part and they just cut and X through it and the inside edges are very sharp and it's not the best for holding round things. It's why like the barrel arbor pin devices better for holding round things. But why is it become one of my most useful at times pin vice because it can do something. If you want I can get pictures.

I find that if things don't fit right not the part but the watch itself doesn't fit right because the posts is steady alignment pins don't seem to do right I take my pin vice and grab the post or pin as tight as I can and I turn in the sharp edges of the pin vice gently planes off of very minuscule amount of metal. And then I tried the plate again and then the plate fits fine it's not too loose so don't take off too much metal you just take off the hair of metal in fact a here is probably too thick and now the plate fits without having to risk breaking things.

Don't know if that violates the Golden rule are not the golden rule is don't modify the watch for the replacement part but I'm just modifying the watch so that the plates will go together without snapping all the pivots Off.

Even golden rules are made to be broken John. Modifications are made all the time to make a watch run better aren't they ? Factories of old and their quality control movement correctors made mistakes and tolerance errors. An old watchmaker would have spent countless hours modifying and correcting his workpiece.  I would say its ok to bend the rules as long as it improves.  

[kd8tzc]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Did you know there's a golden rule that you never modify the watch to fit the replacement parts. This even came up a discussion somewhere else that went to modify the balance arm to fit their new staff which was probably wrong. For any of us that had to deal with the watches been modified we do not have happy thoughts about the person who did the because now it's a nightmare to deal with the problem

 

Interesting.  The Luch 2209 movement that I have been working on had something really strange done to it before I got it.  The Balance Cock had a shim (same color as the movement) added.  Was this done at the factory before it left?  Was it after the fact?  No idea.  I don't have a picture of it, but if I remember, I can add one.  It looks like the factory might have done this, but the question begs, why?  Why not just manufacturer the part the correct size so it doesn't need a shim?  Maybe it was the communist way the Soviets did their watches... no idea... but it makes it a PITA to reinstall the balance cock.

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Interesting.  The Luch 2209 movement that I have been working on had something really strange done to it before I got it.  The Balance Cock had a shim (same color as the movement) added.  Was this done at the factory before it left?  Was it after the fact?  No idea.  I don't have a picture of it, but if I remember, I can add one.  It looks like the factory might have done this, but the question begs, why?  Why not just manufacturer the part the correct size so it doesn't need a shim?  Maybe it was the communist way the Soviets did their watches... no idea... but it makes it a PITA to reinstall the balance cock.

This is very common with Russian watches, usually a brass shim. I have Raketas with a single shim and two even two shims under the balance cock.

[HectorLooi]

I've never understood why they designed it with shims. Was it a way to prolong the life of the watch? As the balance pivots wore down, you just remove a shim to reduce the endshake?

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

The Luch 2209 movement that I have been working on had something really strange done to it before I got it.  The Balance Cock had a shim (same color as the movement) added.  Was this done at the factory before it left?  Was it after the fact? 

 

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is very common with Russian watches, usually a brass shim. I have Raketas with a single shim and two even two shims under the balance cock.

Yes this is come up multiple times on this discussion group as it's extremely common on Russian watches.

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I've never understood why they designed it with shims. Was it a way to prolong the life of the watch? As the balance pivots wore down, you just remove a shim to reduce the endshake?

It does bring up a peculiar question. My suspicion always was at the Russian machinery is primitive may not be quite the right word. I always perceive of it as poor manufacturing a way of dealing with it.

The peculiar pondering question would be why didn't they modify the staff? So if you had an automatic staff cutting machine And you didn't know how to modify it and it was too long. Somewhere in a discussion somebody purchased a new staff and I think it was too long. Then how would you fix the problem? The classic way is you shortened the pivot but I guess a brass shim would do the same thing. Which would be easier to do with unskilled laborers? Conceivably a brass shim that starts off Click and you just sand it down to the proper thickness versus reducing the length of the pivots which requires skills?

The other thing that can happen with production with machinery is things will wear out especially the cutters with time. So the dimensions of apart at the start of the run may not be the same as at the end of the run depending upon how well you maintain your quality control and with the one of updater fix the problem. So maybe a brass shim is the easy way to go.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Why not just manufacturer the part the correct size so it doesn't need a shim?  Maybe it was the communist way the Soviets did their watches... no idea... but it makes it a PITA to reinstall the balance cock.

Install your balance as normal but leave the screws up a turn or so then slide the brass shim in between the plate and the balance cock. If you put the shim down first and the cock on top, you will knock the shim around and off the plate.

[HectorLooi]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to think it's a manufacturing defect

The tight bridges that I usually come across are Omegas. Now, that can't be a poor manufacturing tolerances, right?

I would put the bridge on without the wheels and "pump" the plate up and down a few times until it loosens. My mentor has scolded me for wearing out the precision put into the manufacturing. 

I suspect it's the copper colored coating that Omega likes to put on their bridges. It's a couple of microns too thick in the wrong places.

[JohnR725]

40 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The tight bridges that I usually come across are Omegas. Now, that can't be a poor manufacturing tolerances, right?

Interesting?

You wouldn't think with the Omega that they would have poor manufacturing tolerances.

Then you don't need that type of tolerance to have a plate that goes down were you risk breaking your pivots versus a plate that still goes down tight but goes down without breaking the pivots off isn't going to screw up the manufacturing tolerances.

42 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I suspect it's the copper colored coating that Omega likes to put on their bridges

I wonder if the copper can get a tarnish that makes it do that?