Balance complete intechanges but what about the grade of the oscilator.

[Nucejoe]

Hi folks, 

 According to Julesborel balance complete of Seiko lord matic 5619a is replacable with a 721/1877.  

  Timegrapher shows 5619a is a good grade movement/ oscilator, but 

WHAT  IS THE GRADE OF   721/ 1877  OSCILATOR?      Is it as good as 5619a?   if not then I would be depreciating the mid grade watch 5619a is, when I drop a lower grade oscilator in it.  

TIA 

 

[mikepilk]

Is 721/1877 just their reference? At the top it lists 310560 which is the correct Seiko part number (and you can find NOS on ebay)

Edited May 6, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

 Thanks Mike,

Good to know spares are still out there to be sourced, 

In my neck of the woods we had long resorted to used parts for lord matic. 

Will search ebay, though getting stuff brought to me is another story,  long story too.

I should be able to rebuilt the balance complete that came in the watch as the spring looks to have its original length, we'll see.

I don't know if 721 is solely  julesborel's or the makers  refernce number.

Rgds

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Nucejoe

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't know if 721 is solely  julesborel's or the makers  refernce number.

It's the Swiss part number

[JohnR725]

39 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It's the Swiss part number

if you look at a Swiss package of a watch parts about the size of a postage stamp. Not a lot of room to write paragraphs of data so this is probably why at some point in time they adopted number schemes for naming components. But that often leads to confusions for people who are excited when they see their part number for whatever parts are looking for not realizing it's really a two-part system. You need a number that tell you like balance complete and then you need the actual number of the watch or some other equivalent number.

so for instance in the beginning of the bestfit book they list all the part numbers several pages of them I just sniffed out the first image so you can see.

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

721/ 1877  OSCILATOR

what becomes interesting is if you look at Swiss watches a lot of  models could come  with several different balance wheels from standard to chronometer so there would be a difference in the balance wheel I assume someone is probably a difference in the number. In the case of Seiko their numbers would be very specific if it was a chronometer grade balance wheel.

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

721/ 1877

I was tend to think of that as the best fit number. because that is how they do things usually. so for instance I take that number at I go to bestfit online and ask for the cross reference I get the image which I have attached. Seeing as how the balance wheel doesn't cross reference to every single Seiko balance wheel existence it probably suggests that maybe it's a little different or special possibly higher grade.

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

 Seeing as how the balance wheel doesn't cross reference to every single Seiko balance wheel existence it probably suggests that maybe it's a little different or special possibly higher grade.

Thanks John, Seiko duomatic was produced in two version, namely " duomtic" and " duomatic special ".

  I am guessing  the special duomatic had a Chronometer grade oscilator or as its called regulated and regulare duomtics had same mid grade oscilators as regulare lord matics did, and expect to pay more for the Chronograde one.

You show BestFit listed Seiko 5606A and Seiko 5619A seperately, can the difference between the two be in their grades?  

Seems to me the surest way would be to buy a 5619a from best fit, but I expect the price difference be forbiding.

Rgds 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Nucejoe]

Is the grade of an oscilator distinguishable on timegrapher display.

Is the uniformity and steadiness of beats a valid sign to distinguish  Chronograde oscilators with? 

What other  data from timegrapher indicates high grade oscilators? 

Educate me please    

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

You show BestFit listed Seiko 5606A and Seiko 5619A seperately, can the difference between the two be in their grades?

it's basically just showing that that balance wheel goes in either of those watches so both watches as far as timekeeping should be identical.

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Is the grade of an oscilator distinguishable on timegrapher display.

the answer would be no/sort of yes but actually no. If you place a chronometer grade watch on a timing machine like the one we have at work and we time it in six positions you will find that the timing is all really really close the poise is practically perfect and the watch is really really close to zero and everything looks really nice but does that mean it's a chronometer grade watch no

for instance come to where I work and my boss a modern or a Seiko for that matter or almost any watch and he will regulate it for you. Then he gets really excited that he's regulated to chronometer specification. So what does that mean dissenters they hairspring he regulates it's the beat is really tightly so fresh oil on and in multiple positions it looks really really impressive does that make it a chronometer no but he gets a printout enhances the customer and everyone's really happy their Seiko is now keeping time with the second a day except is it really?

The chronometer specifications are timing over high not instantaneous on the timing machine. Although in order to time perfectly over time it still has to look pretty darn perfect on the timing machine but grammar specification is timekeeping over several days maintaining some very exacting specifications.

https://mizeni.com/movements

here is an interesting page on the website it lists the balance wheels in which watch they go in

https://mizeni.com/parts/seiko-balance

[Nucejoe]

One more question. 

Is the grade  of regulated balance complete the same as Chronometer grade? 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Is the grade  of regulated balance complete the same as Chronometer grade

I think we need to redefine what question you really trying to ask.

The chronometer grade balance will be different than a balance complete unless it's a balance complete for a chronometer grade watch. Chronometer grade balance wheels will be made to very exacting specifications with very exacting materials. You can't just take an ordinary Seiko balance wheel and make it up balance complete for a chronometer it has to be the right balance complete in the first place.

So yes you get a Seiko balance complete to keep chronometer time but that would be in a Seiko or any watch for that you could probably regulated to keep perfect time on the timing machine but it won't be temperature compensated temperatures will screw it up all kinds of the things the screw it up. As far as a Intel Seiko part numbers are for the balance wheel for your watch if you do not have a chronometer grade watch you do not have a chronometer grade balance wheel

so we need to redefine what the question who trying to ask is?

now if you really want a chronometer grade balance wheel for Seiko you really need to get the Seiko watch that goes with it as far as I know I think only the grand Seiko's are chronometer grade.

https://www.theseikoguy.com/grand-seiko-vintage/#google_vignette

 

 

[Nucejoe]

22 hours ago, mikepilk said:

 

Above describes a particulare balance complete, it says 

BALANCE WITH FLAT HAIRSPRING,  REGULATED

I presume regulated balance is superior quality  compared to unregulated.

How different is a regulated balance from not regulated ones.Besides higher quality material which has conceiably gone into such balance !           What work has been done on it to make it regulated?

I must be driving you up the wall with these questions,  John.

I just don't get it.  What the hell is a regulated balance. 

Thanks for taking the time to educate me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

How different is a regulated balance from not regulated ones

how about a question for you we have a picture it says regulated. Now find the picture where it says unregulated see if you can do that.

In the meantime here's a picture out of the bestfit book for the balance wheels. There is the hairspring that is flat there is the over coil no mention of regulation I wonder if that's an issue? Oh look there is the balance wheel for a cylinder and its regulated which is a joke because cylinders keep really crappy time anyway. So if that says regulated does that mean the others are not regulated?

all the number refers to is a type of balance wheel with a flat hairspring. It doesn't give any specifications beyond that other than because you know there's a stud that should've been vibrated reasonably close depending upon the watch so that when you put it in slight move the regulator it should keep time. The part number in no way refers to quality difference unless?

okay am attaching another image as far as I know on Seiko watches if you have a number I have Seiko this watch number there aren't any variations for that watch unless they change the letter on the end that can change things but only if the parts list of the technical documents says that it changes things wishful thinking cannot convert a plain Jane Seiko to a chronometer grade because you feel it should be that way the Swiss a little bit different

so for instance the Swiss 7750 at least on the manufacturing guide that I have here three different grades if you want to use that term. So what is the difference well on the higher ends the mainspring is slightly different slightly longer running time little different physical characteristics probably made to produce a more even source of power over 24 hours.then you get the balance wheel and hairspring both of them are different on the higher end better temperature and better just stability.

so found the parts list they don't seem to list the chronometer grade balance wheel as expected then they don't even list the other balance wheel but. I think when you're looking at the various descriptions up part number 721 balance complete you see the rewards regulated timed just a mean to complete balance you don't have to vibrate the hairspring for instance. I doubt you're going to find a part number 721 that says DIY you must regulate this yourself.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETA_7750

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Thank you John, understood now.

Apparently unregualed was my understanding.  

 

[praezis]

14 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

BALANCE WITH FLAT HAIRSPRING,  REGULATED

In that picture, regulated is just another word for vibrated.

With stud at the right place: „regulated“. Without stud:  unregulated.

It has nothing to do with chronometer grade or quality. The Swiss often had issues with their translating.

Frank

[mikepilk]

I know that there are 4 grades of ETA movements, Standard, Elabore, Top and Chronometer. And, as @JohnR725's pic above, shows, the top 2 grades use Glucydur balances - which you can tell as they have curved arms. The nickel plated wheels have straight arms. 

I always look for the curved balance arms when buying.

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, praezis said:

In that picture, regulated is just another word for vibrated.

Frank

 Thanks Frank clear as the day light now ,  

 We have been working with unregulated balances all along, for example Seiko 6309 hairspring is not studded, you practically have to attach the hairspring  to  beat  adjustor arm  at the pining point. 

So  studded hairspring on a balance indicates  its been vibrated ,