Changes on timegrapher...

[kd8tzc]

When watching a timegrapher, what causes the swings with the rate?  For example, in this capture, you can see it starts out at -22 then -4 then +4, the -2, then -24.  My question is what is the cause?

I'm thinking it has to do with the balance wheel and possibly the pallet fork, but not sure exactly what it may be.  I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable can help me understand the theory of what I am seeing in the image.  This is coming off of a 1970s Caravelle 11DP 7 jewel movement.

[AndyHull]

The Bulova 11DP is a licensed version of the Citizen 0241/1802 series of movements, much like the HMT 0231 which coincidentally I've just been looking at as it was in the HMT Slim I posted about earlier today. 

As you can see, they look remarkably similar, with only a slight variation in the plate shapes. Some of the older HMTs have almost identical plates to your Bulova.

My suspicion from the time grapher pattern is that the instability might be related to the escape wheel. Did you remember put a tiny amount of oil on the palette jewel faces? 

How clean is the escape wheel. Can you examine it under a microscope to see if it looks to be running square and true, and not worn or dirty.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the HMT version is rated as +/- 20 sec per day, but I've generally managed to do slightly better than that, even with some of the very rough and ready, well worn specimens I've looked at. The fixed stud regulator is a little bit of a pain, as it obviously makes getting the beat error down somewhat of a faff.

Parts from the HMT *should* probably fit on the 11DP. I did cobble together a Citizen version with some HMT parts at one stage. Also there are several variants of the HMT version, and all of the parts seem to be interchangeable between those. I make no claims for this being a good idea, but if you are struggling to find parts, that might be one avenue to explore.

Edited May 1, 2023 by AndyHull

[HectorLooi]

Try running it "bare bones". Remove the hands, motion works, etc. Sometimes interference from other components can send you on a wild goose chase.

[AndyHull]

  On 5/1/2023 at 11:24 PM, HectorLooi said:

Try running it "bare bones". Remove the hands, motion works, etc. Sometimes interference from other components can send you on a wild goose chase.

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Sound advice.

[JohnR725]

it would be helpful to have the background history of the watch.. In other words new watch that hasn't been cleaned yet or have you service this watch?

 

[kd8tzc]

  On 5/1/2023 at 10:51 PM, AndyHull said:

My suspicion from the time grapher pattern is that the instability might be related to the escape wheel. Did you remember put a tiny amount of oil on the palette jewel faces? 

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This was a difficult one to get oil on the palette jewel's due to the way the wheels practically cover up the entry stone.  Possibly I didn't do as good of a job as I had thought.

 

  On 5/1/2023 at 10:51 PM, AndyHull said:

How clean is the escape wheel. Can you examine it under a microscope to see if it looks to be running square and true, and not worn or dirty.

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It's clean, but I will take a look at if it is worn.  I did not even look at that.

  On 5/1/2023 at 11:24 PM, HectorLooi said:

Try running it "bare bones

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The timegrapher results were in the bare bones state.

 

  On 5/2/2023 at 5:00 AM, JohnR725 said:

it would be helpful to have the background history of the watch..

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The watch had just been cleaned.  Whoever had the watch previously must have serviced it as it was overly oily.  I cleaned the entire movement except the mainspring.  I also did not take the balance jewels out and clean those, as I tend to have issues with that, so I really should do that as well.

[kd8tzc]

Okay, so I just looked at the escape wheel and I think I see an issue.  The one end looks a bit mangled... I hadn't noticed this before and when I was checking end play I must have missed it.  Looks like I need a donor movement now...

Also, here is what the mainspring looks like.  Really dirty, so that may either mean I need to clean and lubricate it, OR a new mainspring.  Take a look at the top of the second picture though.... it looks like the bridle engages into the barrel on this one... this is only the second mainspring I have looked at, and yes I know it would help if I took it out and looked at it, but when inspecting it under the microscope, this is what I saw and it caught my attention.

 

Lastly, looking at this, am I correct that this is a right hand wind mainspring?  I believe I read someplace that when you look at the mainspring in the barrel, if the end of it (part that connects to the arbor) when placed in the 12 o'clock position... if that points to the right, then it is a right hand movement.

[JohnR725]

  On 5/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, kd8tzc said:

The watch had just been cleaned

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I was kinda hoping you're going to say this is the incoming watch because that's what it looks like.

 

  On 5/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, kd8tzc said:

except the mainspring.

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the weird wandering a fact could be caused by magnetism but more likely is uneven power. Like what happens if you didn't clean the mainspring and it's sticky. Basically all the rest the work he did is somewhat worthless if your source of power just isn't functional

then the random dots or the wandering dots themselves a lot of times as caused by bad lubrication on the escapement or things related to the escapement.

  On 5/2/2023 at 2:15 PM, kd8tzc said:

Really dirty, so that may either mean I need to clean and lubricate it, OR a new mainspring.

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yes really dirty is really bad. As you need the practice of working with mainspring is I would go ahead and take it out and try to clean it then put it back in again and see what it does for your timing machine results.

then right-handed versus left-handed mainsprings? 90 some percent of the time your mainspring will be right-handed. The most typical exceptions of not being right-handed are full plate American pocket watches and Seiko watches. There's a few others but they're usually right-handed. In other words it means when your winding them into the winder your turning to the right or clockwise.

  On 5/2/2023 at 2:15 PM, kd8tzc said:

am I correct that this is a right hand wind mainspring?

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I've attached an image to add to our confusion. So if you think about the mainspring winder as being off the set of your barrel so you're going to turn the handle clockwise or to the right wind it into the winder stick the winder into the barrel and push it out and when it's pushed out it should be in the opposite direction to catch. So you look at the image below the mainspring itself in the barrel is winding counterclockwise. Then the picture you have of your mainspring is winding clockwise in the barrel. So it appears to be that citizen copied Seiko and that's a left-handed  Barrel which is weird there must be something about the gear train that we can't see. It be interestingly take the watch apart again if you do is to get some pictures of the watch.

oh a muscle attaching another image this is a mainspring in the ring it would normally come in. They colorcode the rings sometimes so you can  tell easily which side is out so you're looking at the ring exactly the way it should look on top of a right-handed barrel and does it look the same as yours spring? Sometimes I wonder if I'm having dyslexia moment getting things backwards which is why we give you the images you can decide for yourself but since this is really a Japanese watch there is what they did although?

 

oh and the other clue you have done all of this is if the watches fully wound up you should have more than 204° of amplitude. Plus as a guess if you rotated to a crown position like crown down it will probably drop way below 200° and that's also an indication he just don't have enough power. Like a watch that's never been serviced which is why asked the original question as this looks more like a incoming watches needing to be serviced in a watch that's been serviced

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

so when I press a new mainspring in, I keep the color coded side up (facing me) when I insert the spring?

Also, to clean the mainspring, how do you recommend I do that?  I just use these small glass jars that hold only about 2oz so that won't work for the springs.  Wipe them down by hand?

Edited May 2, 2023 by kd8tzc

[JohnR725]

  On 5/2/2023 at 8:31 PM, kd8tzc said:

so when I press a new mainspring in, I keep the color coded side up (facing me) when I insert the spring?

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yes on a normal right-handed watch they just shove in. It's why most people don't play with the mainsprings they just buy a new ones they can just shove it in. But look at the direction that your arbor rotates in to wind the mainspring it's rotating anticlockwise direction. Now look at the spring in its ring it's going in a counterclockwise direction. That means you just flip the ring upside down the correspond to the direction that it needs to wind in and everything will be fine. But I want you look at this because I might be having a weird dyslexia moment and getting this all backwards which is why gave all the pictures for you to study

[kd8tzc]

This whole left hand vs right hand thing gets me all messed up.  I never know how I should attach it to the winding arbor as don't you need to flip it or something.  I thought I saw on some video a way that the mainspring should look when you are winding.  I think it had something to do with the bridle but I can't recall... I should have taken notes as I can recall where I saw this now.  Maybe it was one of Mark's videos here on the forums learning videos.

[JohnR725]

  On 5/2/2023 at 8:44 PM, kd8tzc said:

This whole left hand vs right hand thing gets me all messed up. 

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 the left and right really has to do with the handle of the main spring Winder. In other words are you going to turn to the right clockwise or you can turn to the left counterclockwise.

Then suppose the mainspring was missing all you have is the watch in the barrel oh dear what would you do we can't look at what was there before how would you know which way to put it in? Well that's easy you take your barrel without the arbor and centered in the watch how does it go in the watch then you put the arbor in the barrel to see how it goes. Then you put the arbor the barrel so you can see the arbor in the barrel you see which way it winds the mainspring. so the case of the brand-new mainspring in its ring like an image you can compare and it's easy to see which direction it takes to wind it.

Now where things get really confusing is when your winding it into the mainspring winder it's going the exact opposite way of the barrel because when you shove it in it gets developmentally challenging for me at times I just remember I'm always turning the handle to the right unless it's in 18 size full plate watch and then it gets turned to the left because they're left-handedthis is why you find the colored rings on one side with new mainspring is because 99% of the time they go in one direction.

 

.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 5/2/2023 at 8:44 PM, kd8tzc said:

This whole left hand vs right hand thing gets me all messed up.  I never know how I should attach it to the winding arbor as don't you need to flip it or something.  I thought I saw on some video a way that the mainspring should look when you are winding.  I think it had something to do with the bridle but I can't recall... I should have taken notes as I can recall where I saw this now.  Maybe it was one of Mark's videos here on the forums learning videos.

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This used to catch me out as well when I started. Do yourself a little drawing of which way round the spring coils in the barrel before you take it out. Also double check that this is correct by looking at the  direction of the arbor hook. Then instead of trying to look in the winder end to see how it should go, site down from the top of the winder the push button end, imagine seeing through the winder as if it were invisible. From that angle of sight the direction of the spring's coils will match.  Hope that makes sense.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[GuyMontag]

  On 5/2/2023 at 8:44 PM, kd8tzc said:

This whole left hand vs right hand thing gets me all messed up.  I never know how I should attach it to the winding arbor as don't you need to flip it or something.  I thought I saw on some video a way that the mainspring should look when you are winding.  I think it had something to do with the bridle but I can't recall... I should have taken notes as I can recall where I saw this now.  Maybe it was one of Mark's videos here on the forums learning videos.

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Here is how I think about it. I look at the mainspring in the barrel and look which way the spring runs, from the hole end to the bridle end. In the 11DP as you showed it goes counter clockwise (CCW) if you follow it from the hole end to the bridle. That requires a left hand winder. If it were to run clockwise  it requires a right hand winder. So:

CW = right hand winder

CCW = left hand winder

 

Then when you want to wind it into the winder, place the spring on your bench so that it is in the same orientation as it was in the barrel (CCW). Now lift the spring up, keeping it in the CCW orientation and slide the winding arbor into the spring from UNDERNEATH. It doesn't matter if it's a right handed or left handed, if you put your spring on your bench in the same orientation it is in the barrel and then slip the arbor into the spring from underneath you will always be OK. Here it is illustrated on a CCW mainspring like in the 11DP. The spring was laid on the bench in the CCW orientation and then I slid the winder in from beneath.

 

 

I just looked at an 11DP and it takes a left hand size 6 winder.

Edited May 2, 2023 by GuyMontag

[kd8tzc]

  On 5/2/2023 at 10:58 PM, GuyMontag said:

ow lift the spring up, keeping it in the CCW orientation and slide the winding arbor into the spring from UNDERNEATH

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Thank you... that helps me tremendously as I was struggling to figure out how to lay the spring and then put it on the winder.

 

  On 5/2/2023 at 9:12 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then suppose the mainspring was missing all you have is the watch in the barrel oh dear what would you do we can't look at what was there before how would you know which way to put it in?

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Couldn't I also just wind the watch (assuming it is not an automatic) and see if the barrel turns CW or CCW?

 

  On 5/2/2023 at 9:52 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do yourself a little drawing of which way round the spring coils in the barrel before you take it out.

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Great advice with the drawing... I actually take a picture, but I just did two drawing of CW and CCW in my notebook and labeled them Left and Right so I know what I am looking at now.

[JohnR725]

as far as using the mainspring winders goes is pretty simple unless you using a vintage set. Like my pocket watch Winder will go in either direction as it's just a pin sticking up. But if you look at the modern Winder the way the hook is designed it will only go in one direction I'm not saying you can't but I would say it's it's only going to go in one direction.

a place for you have any confusion is something like this watch or vintage 18 size American pocket watches or Seiko automatic watches typically 90+ percent of the spring is all go in one direction and the right-handed winder will let you get there.

  On 5/2/2023 at 11:55 PM, kd8tzc said:

Couldn't I also just wind the watch (assuming it is not an automatic) and see if the barrel turns CW or CCW?

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yes that would also work but you have to put together enough of the watch to do that but yes that works anything to see the direction but as I said 90 some percent will only go in one direction. Which is why when I'm doing 18 size pocket watches I really have to pay attention and go the other direction otherwise I'm annoyed with what just happened.

Oh then there is the other strange little thing with your watch notice the screws on the ratchet wheel and Crown will notice the extra lines those are to tell you that both of them are left-handed screws. The crown wheel tends to be left-handed most of the time because otherwise when your winding it it would unwind the screw and fall so this way of the screws does anything ill typed itself up. But typically the ratchet wheel screw is always a standard screw except in this case it's left-handed because it's going on a square arbor it really doesn't matter but I wonder if they're trying to tell us something?

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 5/2/2023 at 11:55 PM, kd8tzc said:

Great advice with the drawing... I actually take a picture, but I just did two drawing of CW and CCW in my notebook and labeled them Left and Right so I know what I am looking at now.

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The key part of the advice is to sight down from the top of the  winder, as though you are about to push the spring out into the barrel. The orientation of the spring coils is the same as looking at the barrel. When you look at the spring once its wound into the spring winder its reversed you are looking at the bottom of the spring once its in the barrel. I may not be explaining this very well, its easier to show what i mean.

[Nucejoe]

  On 5/2/2023 at 8:44 PM, kd8tzc said:

This whole left hand vs right hand thing gets me all messed up.  I never know how I should attach it to the winding arbor as don't you need to flip it or something.  

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The watch itself shows which direction winds it up, and thats all you need to figure out the rest. 

[kd8tzc]

Okay, so still struggling with the winder on the 11DP.  I'm using the left handed winder, and I can get it to hook onto the arbor, I get everything all the parts of the winder together, I see the mainspring slowly start to go into the winder, but then I feel it slip after about the second turn.  This is with a mainspring that came with the watch (waiting for the replacement to come in the mail) so what should/could I do to prevent this from happening?

As a side note, I tried winding a newer spring from one of my "parts" Seagul ETA 6497 clone on the same winder.  Granted, it needs a bigger winder, but I can latch it and get about 80 - 85% of the mainspring in the winder.  Possibly I am doing something wrong with the older mainsprings.

[GuyMontag]

What size arbor/winder are you using for the 11DP?

 

 

[kd8tzc]

I have the #6 Bergeon... so I believe that is 9.8mm.  I believe I saw someplace that it should be using a #11, which is 15mm, but it works on the #6 arbor.  Now how do I get the 11Dp mainspring to work on the #6?

[GuyMontag]

That's the correct sized winder. If it's slipping off the hook on the winder I would confirm:
 

1. The inner coil of the mainspring is tight to the arbor when you insert the arbor.
2. Confirm the the hook on the winder is engaging the hole on the mainspring. I like to look under the microscope.
3. Confirm you are winding in the correct direction.

Other than that I can't think of why the spring wouldn't wind into the winder.

[kd8tzc]

I'll try and get a picture and you can all critique.  Possibly I think I am doing it right, but you will spot a mistake.

[JohnR725]

  On 5/5/2023 at 6:42 PM, GuyMontag said:

1. The inner coil of the mainspring is tight to the arbor when you insert the arbor.

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the problem with modern mainsprings are made to very exacting specifications. The problem with the mainspring winders are there may to sizes which do not necessarily correspond to the size of the mainspring. In particular the inter-coil just may not catch because they're not the right size. This is where a lot of time you have to do mixing and matching of the handles to see if you find one that fits. Or if you have the older set that has the more aggressive look sometimes one of those might work. or sometimes appear have enough tools an entirely different set may be needed.

Then how exacting of the specifications? You'll notice they have the standard set with numbers on the handles corresponding the sizes but they also make sense that correspond to exact watch calibers like the 6497. Which starts to suggest that the sizing is really really critical if you have to have a specific winder for a specific caliber. As opposed to just saying use number whatever because of be close enough.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 5/5/2023 at 6:53 PM, kd8tzc said:

I'll try and get a picture and you can all critique.  Possibly I think I am doing it right, but you will spot a mistake.

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If the inner coil is wound tight enough around the arbor then probably a problem with the latching of the arbor hook onto the mainspring's winding slot.  Is the hook on the arbor ok, Undamaged ? Is the portion of the mainspring's slot that catches the hook ok and Undamaged?  Either or both of these can receive damage if roughly unhooked especially when a tool is used to help unhook the spring after winding. Check the inside edge of the mainspring's slot.

  On 5/5/2023 at 7:12 PM, JohnR725 said:

the problem with modern mainsprings are made to very exacting specifications. The problem with the mainspring winders are there may to sizes which do not necessarily correspond to the size of the mainspring. In particular the inter-coil just may not catch because they're not the right size. This is where a lot of time you have to do mixing and matching of the handles to see if you find one that fits. Or if you have the older set that has the more aggressive look sometimes one of those might work. or sometimes appear have enough tools an entirely different set may be needed.

Then how exacting of the specifications? You'll notice they have the standard set with numbers on the handles corresponding the sizes but they also make sense that correspond to exact watch calibers like the 6497. Which starts to suggest that the sizing is really really critical if you have to have a specific winder for a specific caliber. As opposed to just saying use number whatever because of be close enough.

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How would increasing the size of the mainspring's slot be. There are old pliers designed do this but maybe not cut into a modern alloy spring.