Closing the barrel and barrel lid arbor hole.

[Knebo]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm not conversant with that product, whats in it ?. I figure you have to be careful with what is used,so an abrasive paste. Autosol i  think is aluminium oxide. There is always the possibility that the material being polished gets charged with an abrasive compound.  Maybe a reason that kalle only uses a smoothing broach. I have seen discussions of folk using pin polishers on arbors and balance staffs, is that ok? They are hard materials,  whereas a brass barrel and lid is soft  comparison.  Maybe more discussion is needed on if and what to polish with. 

Polywatch ia also based on aluminium oxide (just found the tech sheet on CousinsUK). 

For the Cape Cod cloth I can only find "cotton/polyester cloth, vegetable oil, inert polishing compound, destillates, perfume". 

 

6 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I wasn't taught in either of my schools to polish the hole in the barrel/lid, only smoothing broach. As the barrel is brass or similar, there's a very real chance of charging it with whatever abrasive is used. Even if very fine that will wear the arbor over time.

 

Thanks! That'll make my life easier. Do you use any oil on the smoothing broach? 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Knebo

[nickelsilver]

27 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks! That'll make my life easier. Do you use any oil on the smoothing broach? 

Yes, you can use just about any oil but some folks like to use the same as you lubricate the barrel arbor with. If you aren't intending to fully clean the barrel before assembly then definitely use the same as you would use for the arbor.

[rehajm]

Kalle has recommended lapping paper and an appropriately sized punch to polish the inside of the barrel where the arbor sits. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by rehajm

[Knebo]

13 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Kalle has recommended lapping paper and an appropriately sized punch to polish the inside of the barrel where the arbor sits. 

Oh, I must have missed that! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, rehajm said:

Kalle has recommended lapping paper and an appropriately sized punch to polish the inside of the barrel where the arbor sits. 

Its an abrasive compound  where the grit embeds itself into a metal that is the problem. Lapping paper sounds quite safe.

[nickelsilver]

49 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its an abrasive compound  where the grit embeds itself into a metal that is the problem. Lapping paper sounds quite safe.

As long as the paper doesn't shed any abrasive particles....

 

There is a lapping compound called Timesaver that is for lapping soft metals that are prone to charging (imbedding particles). I don't know exactly what it is, but it works for a while and eventually stops being abrasive. I know machinists who love it, but never tried it and don't know any watchmakers who have.

[nevenbekriev]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:54 AM, nevenbekriev said:

It seems the wheel is made of brass, is it?

My expirience is that polishing brass parts where friction happens like bearings and escapement teeth doesn't bring any good. Burnishing helps beter....

The other thing is the pins itself. They wear and they wear much more when surface of the brass teeth is charged with abrasive particles by the dust around or from polishing the teeth with abrasives. ...

With the barrels is the same, and for all kind of bearings too.

When the barrel bearings were closed and reamed, the barrel should be checked for true rotation and trued when needed

[Knebo]

Wow, have I opened a pandora's box here? As many opinions as lubrication?

Anyway, for me, very interesting and in listening-mode.

 

PS: how about Eve pin polishers (extra fine)? Would they loose particles that absorb? Are they comparable to lapping paper? 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/pin-polishers

Edited November 3, 2023 by Knebo

[praezis]

25 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Wow, have I opened a pandora's box here? As many opinions as lubrication?

I do not see any differences among those who know what they do 

[mikepilk]

31 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Wow, have I opened a pandora's box here? As many opinions as lubrication?

No need to even open the box.

I think the bottom line is, don't worry about polishing barrel holes, as long as they are reasonably smooth. The barrel is brass and the arbor is much harder steel. 

There's no mention of polishing the barrel holes in any of the literature I've looked in, and @nickelsilver says he wasn't taught it in school.

So add it to the list of "things to not worry about".

[JohnR725]

 

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not sure if its a standard proceedure, just seemed logical to polish the inside to reduce friction. A toothpick initially with autosol which does polish quite well, the polinum might be overkill but i had it,so why not. At that level of grit very unlikely you are removing noticeable materialand only takes a minute.  Since then i have seen others do very similar.

I assume by others you mean the gods that make YouTube videos?

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I wasn't taught in either of my schools to polish the hole in the barrel/lid, only smoothing broach. As the barrel is brass or similar, there's a very real chance of charging it with whatever abrasive is used. Even if very fine that will wear the arbor over time.

Schools what silly places versus the gods of YouTube. In the school did you polish every single barrel with a smoothing broach or only If you are doing some sort a repair to the barrel itself?

Then for those polishing the barrels what about the arbors?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume by others you mean the gods that make YouTube videos?

Are you suggesting the YouTube gods are not to be trusted ? Oh no i will erase my memory of everything I've ever seen on YouTube . Yes there is some terrible advice out there.

[rehajm]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

 

Wow, have I opened a pandora's box here? As many opinions as lubrication

 

I don’t think there’s much passion on this…I have tried the lapping paper on a beat up test mule where someone had trouble with the arbor and spring. It clearly had a positive impact on amplitude. I stopped after one shot of polishing the hole wall as I could still see polishing compound after some rinsing. not sure if I had embedded compound or not. 

[mikepilk]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

In the school did you polish every single barrel with a smoothing broach or only If you are doing some sort a repair to the barrel itself?

I believe that barrel holes SHOULD be polished. But ONLY using rocking horse poo on some unicorn horn.

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then for those polishing the barrels what about the arbors?

I'd say that's more important. I do polish the arbors if they aren't nice and smooth.

[RichardHarris123]

believe that barrel holes SHOULD be polished. But ONLY using rocking horse poo on some unicorn horn.

For once I don't have to spend any money, I have an abundance of both.  Hehe. 

[mikepilk]

8 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

believe that barrel holes SHOULD be polished. But ONLY using rocking horse poo on some unicorn horn.

For once I don't have to spend any money, I have an abundance of both.  Hehe. 

But I bet you don't have a setting lever spring for the Movado I'm restoring 

[Knebo]

16 hours ago, praezis said:

I do not see any differences among those who know what they do 

Well, I've now read

- polinum and polinox 

- autosol

- Timesaver

- lapping paper 

- nothing, just smoothing broach (with oil) 

- and of course rocking horse poo on unicorn horn. 

 

I'll openly admit that I don't know what I'm supposed to do. That's why I'm here on this forum. 

However, looking closely at your 'likes', I gather that you probably suggest that the smoothing broach is the best option. Is that a correct deduction? 

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Well, I've now read

- polinum and polinox 

- autosol

- Timesaver

- lapping paper 

- nothing, just smoothing broach (with oil) 

- and of course rocking horse poo on unicorn horn. 

 

I'll openly admit that I don't know what I'm supposed to do. That's why I'm here on this forum. 

However, looking closely at your 'likes', I gather that you probably suggest that the smoothing broach is the best option. Is that a correct deduction? 

I think the concensus is that most of the time the barrel holes don't need polishing, if they do then a soothing broach is the way to go. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by RichardHarris123
Typo again.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

Well, I've now read

- polinum and polinox 

- autosol

- Timesaver

- lapping paper 

- nothing, just smoothing broach (with oil) 

- and of course rocking horse poo on unicorn horn. 

 

I'll openly admit that I don't know what I'm supposed to do. That's why I'm here on this forum. 

However, looking closely at your 'likes', I gather that you probably suggest that the smoothing broach is the best option. Is that a correct deduction? 

I would agree with that knebo, the post i made was 7 months ago, since then have discussed other topics regarding the potential charging of of watch part materials using an abrasive paste. Its something that should be considered,  I still see folk on YouTube using autosol, diamond paste on something they shouldn't . Better to use something that cuts or compresses without discharging abrasive particles 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I still see folk on YouTube using autosol, diamond paste on something they shouldn't . Better to use something that cuts or compresses without discharging abrasive particles 

The good of YouTube is it makes watch repair look fun 100% of the time. Versus the reality of where there will be frustrations or other things of annoyance.

But the people on YouTube always come across like they actually no what they're doing. Which is fine if you don't know what you're doing they are literally God's. Which is why I occasionally make jokes about that. But as your knowledge increases you begin to realize that your gods are false gods. Oh but may be rich false gods it depends on how many views they have with their videos.

The only real test of any of this is re-examining your watch after a year. Do a running a valuation wind it up and put it on the timing machine see how it's doing preferably more than one position. Wait 24 hours is it still running it still on time how does it look on the timing machine. Disassemble it out as everything look this is especially important if this is a watch that you had running every day on your wrist. Unfortunately a watches serviced a year ago that sitting in a drawer someplace doesn't count preferably need something that's running on a daily basis. How does it look after a year. For instance save the little money on those crappies Swiss lubricants that are so expensive purchase something cheaper are they still functioning. All is aggressive grinding compound's are they still aggressively grinding inside your watch? That's really the test of watch repair what does your watch two years after you serviced it. But you never do see that on YouTube because typically to get things to fit within a timeframe skip steps they never go to show you what their watch did a year later or whether the watch runs at all next week.

Oh and of course if they have a disappointing outcome less-than-perfect will they ever make a video? I was suggesting to somebody that I know that there's a YouTube channel that what about a video of all the watches you currently can't service because parts etc. were just can't practically be serviced. Or what about the watches are currently working on that don't want to run rights are just don't rerun at all. But I was told that would make for a boring video and nobody would watch that.

 

 

[Knebo]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would agree with that knebo, the post i made was 7 months ago, since then have discussed other topics regarding the potential charging of of watch part materials using an abrasive paste. Its something that should be considered,  I still see folk on YouTube using autosol, diamond paste on something they shouldn't . Better to use something that cuts or compresses without discharging abrasive particles 

Thanks for summarising it for me. 

Seeing the debate and the reasons why to use only a smoothing broach is actually great. Maybe better than just reading the correct approach. Help to really understand. 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

The good of YouTube is it makes watch repair look fun 100% of the time. Versus the reality of where there will be frustrations or other things of annoyance.

But the people on YouTube always come across like they actually no what they're doing. Which is fine if you don't know what you're doing they are literally God's. Which is why I occasionally make jokes about that. But as your knowledge increases you begin to realize that your gods are false gods. Oh but may be rich false gods it depends on how many views they have with their videos.

The only real test of any of this is re-examining your watch after a year. Do a running a valuation wind it up and put it on the timing machine see how it's doing preferably more than one position. Wait 24 hours is it still running it still on time how does it look on the timing machine. Disassemble it out as everything look this is especially important if this is a watch that you had running every day on your wrist. Unfortunately a watches serviced a year ago that sitting in a drawer someplace doesn't count preferably need something that's running on a daily basis. How does it look after a year. For instance save the little money on those crappies Swiss lubricants that are so expensive purchase something cheaper are they still functioning. All is aggressive grinding compound's are they still aggressively grinding inside your watch? That's really the test of watch repair what does your watch two years after you serviced it. But you never do see that on YouTube because typically to get things to fit within a timeframe skip steps they never go to show you what their watch did a year later or whether the watch runs at all next week.

Oh and of course if they have a disappointing outcome less-than-perfect will they ever make a video? I was suggesting to somebody that I know that there's a YouTube channel that what about a video of all the watches you currently can't service because parts etc. were just can't practically be serviced. Or what about the watches are currently working on that don't want to run rights are just don't rerun at all. But I was told that would make for a boring video and nobody would watch that.

 

 

I agree completely. While YouTube is fantastic for many things, blindly relying on any video you find is a recipe for disaster. 

Long-term checking of your own work is also great advice. Anxiously waiting for enough time to pass. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

The good of YouTube is it makes watch repair look fun 100% of the time. Versus the reality of where there will be frustrations or other things of annoyance.

But the people on YouTube always come across like they actually no what they're doing. Which is fine if you don't know what you're doing they are literally God's. Which is why I occasionally make jokes about that. But as your knowledge increases you begin to realize that your gods are false gods. Oh but may be rich false gods it depends on how many views they have with their videos.

The only real test of any of this is re-examining your watch after a year. Do a running a valuation wind it up and put it on the timing machine see how it's doing preferably more than one position. Wait 24 hours is it still running it still on time how does it look on the timing machine. Disassemble it out as everything look this is especially important if this is a watch that you had running every day on your wrist. Unfortunately a watches serviced a year ago that sitting in a drawer someplace doesn't count preferably need something that's running on a daily basis. How does it look after a year. For instance save the little money on those crappies Swiss lubricants that are so expensive purchase something cheaper are they still functioning. All is aggressive grinding compound's are they still aggressively grinding inside your watch? That's really the test of watch repair what does your watch two years after you serviced it. But you never do see that on YouTube because typically to get things to fit within a timeframe skip steps they never go to show you what their watch did a year later or whether the watch runs at all next week.

Oh and of course if they have a disappointing outcome less-than-perfect will they ever make a video? I was suggesting to somebody that I know that there's a YouTube channel that what about a video of all the watches you currently can't service because parts etc. were just can't practically be serviced. Or what about the watches are currently working on that don't want to run rights are just don't rerun at all. But I was told that would make for a boring video and nobody would watch that.

 

 

Have you watched any of Myretrowatch's videos, Mike the creator doesn't edit out all of his mistakes. With Mike his style is as much about learning from his mishaps and failures as it is about his knowledge and successes at his bench. 

[Knebo]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Have you watched any of Myretrowatch's videos, Mike the creator doesn't edit out all of his mistakes. With Mike his style is as much about learning from his mishaps and failures as it is about his knowledge and successes at his bench. 

Yes, I know the channel. Nice, and not pretending to be what he's not. And simply enjoyable to watch. But not to be confused with a watchmaking course. 

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

ve you watched any of Myretrowatch's videos

you realize if you ask me to look at a YouTube channel I'll probably find something wrong. not that I don't spend a lot of time at YouTube like most of my evening it's how I escaped the universe I go to YouTube but I do not go to YouTube for watch repair. typically if I go to YouTube for watch repair it's because I'm looking for a video to show an example of something. But typically are not going to find me watching watch repair videos on YouTube I'm going to escape the someplace other than watch repair

looking at the list of all of his videos it does look like I have looked a couple of them in the past probably because someone on this group said it was something to look at and I just took a quick look I doubt I watched all of them.

There is an eight interesting amusing problem with his video though he's sitting at a desk. Typically when people are making YouTube videos of watch repair they can't typically set of normal watchmakers bench. Because they're looking through were after cameras monitors and whatever. Although I do see he makes a recommendation to using a microscope which I tend to object to. I've always looked into my watch and looking straight down isn't what I intend on doing any leads to problems but I'm sure the group will oppose tha. Although it was an example of someone using a microscope that couldn't see what they needed the seek is there were looking straight down it was quite amusing.

Then there's a problem of anytime I'm on YouTube there's things to see like this video. No I did not watch the whole thing I just picked bits and pieces to look at. Then I saw another video of a review of a watch which looked promising until I saw the price and it's too much money so that was the end of that. Although I did watch him running the watch of the timing machine at least two times of more than one position. Plus a reference to checking the watch out a year or two from now.

 

then just one more video that looked interesting. More interesting for me because I have one that's running and several other new old stock.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

you realize if you ask me to look at a YouTube channel I'll probably find something wrong. 

Haha thats why we ask John, its your forte.

8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you realize if you ask me to look at a YouTube channel I'll probably find something wrong. not that I don't spend a lot of time at YouTube like most of my evening it's how I escaped the universe I go to YouTube but I do not go to YouTube for watch repair. typically if I go to YouTube for watch repair it's because I'm looking for a video to show an example of something. But typically are not going to find me watching watch repair videos on YouTube I'm going to escape the someplace other than watch repair

looking at the list of all of his videos it does look like I have looked a couple of them in the past probably because someone on this group said it was something to look at and I just took a quick look I doubt I watched all of them.

There is an eight interesting amusing problem with his video though he's sitting at a desk. Typically when people are making YouTube videos of watch repair they can't typically set of normal watchmakers bench. Because they're looking through were after cameras monitors and whatever. Although I do see he makes a recommendation to using a microscope which I tend to object to. I've always looked into my watch and looking straight down isn't what I intend on doing any leads to problems but I'm sure the group will oppose tha. Although it was an example of someone using a microscope that couldn't see what they needed the seek is there were looking straight down it was quite amusing.

Then there's a problem of anytime I'm on YouTube there's things to see like this video. No I did not watch the whole thing I just picked bits and pieces to look at. Then I saw another video of a review of a watch which looked promising until I saw the price and it's too much money so that was the end of that. Although I did watch him running the watch of the timing machine at least two times of more than one position. Plus a reference to checking the watch out a year or two from now.

 

then just one more video that looked interesting. More interesting for me because I have one that's running and several other new old stock.

 

 

I get where you are coming from John, he makes mistakes, lots of them , but generally he doesn’t hide that fact and knows his skill level instead of inflating it to an audience.  I've discussed things with him a few times just recently he's a nice genuine sort of guy. I agree about the looking down on a movement, there's much more to be seen from the side. But a microscope isn't limited to looking down if you have good clearance, i spend more time picking up a movement holder to look inside a watch with a scope than i do viewing down.