Identifying Zenith movement

[Mike78]

Hello,

I've recently started my journey of learning this wonderful hobby.  I purchased a pocket watch from ebay to practice on and I am having difficulty finding any information about the movement and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.  It is a zenith 17 jewel movement and the serial number is 2536958.  R. Kaufman special is also marked on the movement.  I searched the pocket watch directory with no luck.  

Any guidance would be appreciated.

[clockboy]

Welcome to the forum, enjoy.

[Nucejoe]

Hello Mike, welcome to the WRT forum.

 You are brave to plan attacking such good grade movement,  couple of cheap pieces would be better choice to pratice on, best to get you two movements of same caliber to save on spare parts too.

Rgds

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Mike78 said:

difficulty finding any information about the movement

What kind of information are you seeking?

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

couple of cheap pieces would be better choice to pratice on, best to get you two movements of same caliber to save on spare parts too

Usually the preferred choice of pocket watch the start with is either a 6497 or 6498 clones made by the Chinese. The Swiss versions are too expensive than the Chinese work really well. Documentation is readily available the movements are cheap and unfortunately newbies tend to break things.

Then if were going to identify the movement we need a little more information like the diameter across the dial side. That's because in pictures it's hard to tell just how big something is or is not. We also need the hands and dial removes so we can see the dial side of the movement.

 

[Mike78]

20 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hello Mike, welcome to the WRT forum.

 You are brave to plan attacking such good grade movement,  couple of cheap pieces would be better choice to pratice on, best to get you two movements of same caliber to save on spare parts too.

Rgds

Well, When I purchased it from ebay I had no idea it had a zenith movement.  There were no pictures of the movement on the listing.  I purchased it because the case and dial were in great shape.  This way I could just focus on getting it to work.  I was quite happy to see this when I opened it up.

 

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What kind of information are you seeking?

Usually the preferred choice of pocket watch the start with is either a 6497 or 6498 clones made by the Chinese. The Swiss versions are too expensive than the Chinese work really well. Documentation is readily available the movements are cheap and unfortunately newbies tend to break things.

Then if were going to identify the movement we need a little more information like the diameter across the dial side. That's because in pictures it's hard to tell just how big something is or is not. We also need the hands and dial removes so we can see the dial side of the movement.

 

Here is a picture of the dial side.  I did not get a picture with the hands on.  Tonight I will measure the movement.  

I'm trying to source a ratchet wheel and an escape wheel.  When I took it apart I found a broken tooth on the ratchet wheel and a broken upper pinion on the escape wheel  

[Nucejoe]

Glad to see you are familiar with  Zenith brand,  though you didn 't ask this should fetch easy $400 when fixed.

 I think its caliber 10.5NSI.

Good luck 

Dr ranfft lists many Zenith calibers, google should bring you this caliber plus bunch of relevent info. just google,

Zenith  10.5"' NSI   ranfft

 It should tell if there are different bridge layout to this caliber.

Good luck pal.

 

[Mike78]

@Nucejoehow did you identify the caliber?  Any search I did using the serial number turned up zero information.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Mike78 said:

Here is a picture of the dial side.

For future reference when people asked for dial side photos they went a dial side of the movement not the dial. There's stuff under the dial which can be used for identification purposes but we can't see those of the dials on and of course we need the size of the watch. This is because the book we would look at that lists these lists the watches by size and if you do go through looking for all the setting components and not knowing the size well basically people will do that for you so you got a help out here. Then sometimes you're lucky they mark on the dial side of the movement what watch you have sometimes.

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome. 

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, Mike78 said:

@Nucejoehow did you identify the caliber?  Any search I did using the serial number turned up zero information.

 Traditionally Its  going by the keyless geometry ( keyless is the manufaturer's signature) which JohnR introduced " for future references" .

Going by bridge layout ( which I did ) is not always conclusive, as a caliber may have been made with several different bridge layouts.

You mainly look at all calibers made, in the hope of finding the exact looking bridge layout.

Regds

 

 

 

[Mike78]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:13 PM, JohnR725 said:

For future reference when people asked for dial side photos they went a dial side of the movement not the dial. There's stuff under the dial which can be used for identification purposes but we can't see those of the dials on and of course we need the size of the watch. This is because the book we would look at that lists these lists the watches by size and if you do go through looking for all the setting components and not knowing the size well basically people will do that for you so you got a help out here. Then sometimes you're lucky they mark on the dial side of the movement what watch you have sometimes.

Yeah my mistake.  I read dial side but in head was thinking the dial itself.  Thanks for pointing that out

Finally got back to looking at this.  The movement is 42.5mm and here is the dial side picture.  Again, anywhere I look using any of the numbers engraved on the movement turn up limited information.  
 

@Nucejoe your tip of using the bridge layout to find a similar movement did help.  Although limited I am able to find a couple of donor movements on eBay.  
 

here is the picture if the dial side. 

[LittleWatchShop]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:32 AM, Nucejoe said:

I think its caliber 10.5NSI

Yup...but the dial side does not match.

Edited February 12, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[Nucejoe]

So heres an example that bridge layout is not always conclusive. Only the keyless which I call a movements signature.

 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Mike78 said:

he movement is 42.5mm

This dimension makes it around 18 to 19 line movement. Here's one that's close not exactly the same though.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_19_5

Similar designs still not right and diameter is much bigger.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_20_5_NVI

 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:32 AM, Nucejoe said:

Zenith  10.5"' NSI   ranfft

One of the problems with identifying watches on this discussion group is we didn't get a diameter. Now that we have a diameter you'll notice that this watch is about one half the diameter size ruling it out as they watch. Pictures of watches can be so misleading which is why we need sizes

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_10_5_NSI

 

[Mike78]

Well thanks for the help.  Finding replacement parts is definitely something I need to consider when buy future projects pieces.

[LittleWatchShop]

11 minutes ago, Mike78 said:

Well thanks for the help.  Finding replacement parts is definitely something I need to consider when buy future projects pieces.

Something will show up on ebay eventually...be patient. 

Incidentally, I found this advertised as Zenith parts.  Whats up with Zenith ratchet wheels?

[JohnR725]

40 minutes ago, Mike78 said:

Finding replacement parts is definitely something I need to consider when buy future projects pieces.

This is a problem that all of us have in watch repair for variety of reasons.

Anything vintage bike your pocket watch finding parts will be difficult because it's old they didn't stock parts 400 years for instance. If it's something like an American pocket watch where they did have parts at one time the parts may show up somewhere eventually typically eBay eBay is one of the best sources for watch parts for all of us it just takes time for the parts to show up sometimes a lot of time.

We also run into companies that perhaps never supplied parts the first place to anybody. This is a common problem today I think somewhere out there is a website that actually lists all the companies that will not supply parts to watchmakers CV undertake a modern watch you may discover that oh dear you cannot fix it because you cannot get replacement parts.

Fortunately there is a huge section of time where parts were made parts were available and parts are still out there. Plus it was popular enough there may be generic replacement parts like Rolex you can get some generic replacement parts.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Often, before I start on a repair, I go to ebay and look for a donor. Just to be safe...whether there is a broken part, or I may break a part!

[Leewurf]

Just copy and paste everything @Mike78 said and you've got my story too. Made a random eBay purchase to practice on and ended up with a gorgeous Zenith Half Hunter from 1916. I have successfully stripped, cleaned and serviced it, just waiting for a case spring I ordered from the US to arrive to replace the broken one it came with.

I do have a question - a tiny screw (arrowed in the second picture) which is NOT to release the stem. It doesn't quite protrude into the cavity where the winding gubbins live, so unless it has lost its tip its purpose is a mystery. Any suggestions welcome.