Are these reversing wheels functioning correctly?

[gaber]

Hi all!

I am working on a Zenith 2522 P movement, and I am puzzled by the behavior of the automatic winding works.  When I first inspected the watch, the manual winding was very, very stiff.  When I removed the automatic works from the movement, the manual winding became smooth as butter.   Now I don't even know if the automatic version of this movement is designed to allow manual winding, but I think my real problem is I'm not sure I understand how it is *supposed* to wind manually, given my lack of familiarity with automatic movements.

I understand how the reversing wheels function, basically.  Here is my example:

The gold reversing wheels have a mechanism inside that makes it so the wheel and pinion lock and rotate together *only* when the wheel is driven in the clockwise direction (green arrows).  Therefore only one of the pinions at a time will be applying the winding force, and always in the correct direction.  The oscillator (which engages at the pink star) can drive the first inner reversing wheel in either direction to wind the watch.  This makes sense to me, which explains why the reversing wheels are identical, having only one part number assigned to them.  Strangely, when I examined the underside of the wheels, they appear to be different from each other (and different from the NOS replacement part #1488):

Now what I don't understand is how the wheels can allow manual winding.  When torque is applied to the pinions of the reversing wheel, should they spin freely somehow?  I have a hard time imagining how that works.  Anyways, they aren't allowing it.

Lubrication: I used a recipe (25:1 Moebius 9010/IPA Alcohol) to create a dip lubricant to treat the reversing wheels.  I'm unsure whether that is the correct procedure for these particular wheels!  The last person working on the watch saturated them with some thick black grease, which I also found inside the main barrel...

Bonus question:  This movement has a jewel-bearing rotor, which seems very unusual.  Is there a reason this kind of setup doesn't appear in other watches.  Did the design turn out to be flawed?

P.S.

Edited January 23, 2023 by gaber
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[nickelsilver]

The lower pic of reverser doesn't look like something Zenith would have let out of their factory, more like an attempt to disassemble gone wrong. How are you cleaning them? Your recipe should work pretty well, though I'd use 9020 or even D5 or HP1000.

 

This is definitely hand-windable, but the way the gear ratios work, the slightest resistance at the reversers will translate to very hard winding.

[gaber]

1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

The lower pic of reverser doesn't look like something Zenith would have let out of their factory, more like an attempt to disassemble gone wrong. How are you cleaning them?

I repeatedly soaked them in solvent, and dried on paper, until the solvent released onto the paper comes out clean.  I don't yet have an ultrasonic cleaning machine, but it is on my list.

You suspect that the lower reverser is faulty?  Here is the NOS part:

[nickelsilver]

Freedom of reversers is a major issue. On mid-late 20th and forward Rolex* calibers one of the things that made folks buy epilame (Fixodrop) is if you don't treat the reversers with it the oil on the shafts migrates to the guts and they don't work right. ETA reversers are more resistant, as are many "double" reversers like yours.

 

Considering the black grease you encountered, I'd get a replacement for the sketchy one, and wait for an ultrasonic to clean the other- numerous times if you don't have proper watch cleaning solutions. You'll probably find then it works as expected.

*Rolex isn't whistling Dixie. When they do a service on a 20+ year old piece there are 3 cleanings involved, pithwood for pinions and pivots in between, its clean. Clean is 90% of watch service.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, gaber said:

 This movement has a jewel-bearing rotor, which seems very unusual.  Is there a reason this kind of setup doesn't appear in other watches.  Did the design turn out to be flawed?

On the contrary these jeweled bearing work beautifully ,  unless ofcourse the axle is worn or the jewel broken.

I find ultrasonic most effective in cleaning reversers,  should get you one, you'll be surprised. 

High speed gears throw the oil outward, so eplimae treatment is useful and expecredly in the lomg run too. 

Good luck pal.

[gaber]

8 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Freedom of reversers is a major issue. On mid-late 20th and forward Rolex* calibers one of the things that made folks buy epilame (Fixodrop) is if you don't treat the reversers with it the oil on the shafts migrates to the guts and they don't work right. ETA reversers are more resistant, as are many "double" reversers like yours.

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

High speed gears throw the oil outward, so eplimae treatment is useful and expecredly in the lomg run too. 

Do I apply fixodrop before the dip lubricant?  My understanding is that epilame resists the spread of lubricant, so I would think that it might prevent the lubricant (Lubeta V105, etc) from depositing.

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

On the contrary these jeweled bearing work beautifully

Do you have a recommendation for lubricant?  D5?  HP 1300?

[Klassiker]

28 minutes ago, gaber said:

Do I apply fixodrop before the dip lubricant?  My understanding is that epilame resists the spread of lubricant, so I would think that it might prevent the lubricant (Lubeta V105, etc) from depositing.

Yes. The deposit left by the Fixodrop quickly wears off the bearing contact areas. That's where the oil left behind by the Lubeta migrates to.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, gaber said:

 

Do you have a recommendation for lubricant?  

 Memeber HSL shared a pdf, check his approach.

 

On 7/22/2020 at 12:38 AM, HSL said:

Depends of which one? I been playing around with the reversers a bit.
The V105 is probably something like Moebius 9010 in an alcohol solution, this makes it easier to just get that small amount of lubricant needed for the small levers inside the reverser.
Nowadays i just put a microscopic dot into the reverser and blow with air so it circulates, the centripental forces will do the deed for you to spread the lubricant around, with this method practice makes perfect.
The most important stage is however asusual to clean the reversers rigidly, when you think their clean, clean again. I use One-Dip solution and epilame.

Just keep in mind to keep track of the small pinions which come loose during the cleaning process.
Here is one quick and dirty PDF.

Reverser.pdf

And live comment from the from lab, "One always need a bunch of setups to try out your theories on"  

 

[Nucejoe]

HSL speaks of V05 or Moebius 9010 in alcohol, but doesn't specify which alcohol, I suppose a crrier that evaporate fast and doesn't ruin the alcohol.

Does anyone have experience on this to share? 

 

[JohnFrum]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

HSL speaks of V05 or Moebius 9010 in alcohol, but doesn't specify which alcohol, I suppose a crrier that evaporate fast and doesn't ruin the alcohol.

Does anyone have experience on this to share? 

 

JohnR725 had shared the Omega #40 lubrication guide recently 

Smaller carbon chain Benzine (like 40-60 Petroleum Ether) or even better, lab grade Hexane, would be a good solvent here

Alex Hamiltion in fact recommends 9010/Hexane in one of his videos #13 near the end

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by JohnFrum

[gaber]

2 hours ago, JohnFrum said:

JohnR725 had shared the Omega #40 lubrication guide recently 

Interesting that this recipe is officially documented by Omega.  I saw that a 10ml sample of V105 is fairly inexpensive on cousinsuk, so went ahead and added it to my order.  A single reverser wheel is already 50 Eur (!), so the price of the lubricant seems trivial in comparison...

18 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

On the contrary these jeweled bearing work beautifully

Do you happen to know what to lubricate the rotor jewel with?

[Nucejoe]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:28 PM, gaber said:

Do you happen to know what to lubricate the rotor jewel with?

Hi @gaber 

Sorry for my late reaponse,  somehow  missed your question.

I am as ignorant as one can be when it comes to lubricants.