Poor amplitude on reassembly Certina 23-36

[tonydagee]

Hello everyone, happy new year

I’d appreciate some advice about how to proceed… on reassembly the swing is about 20 degrees only, if at all.Stops as soon as tiny pressure applied from above.

i carefully degreased and demagnetisedt the balance assembly and checked for overbanking.

Do I need to disassemble and start over? Help!

many thanks, TonyG 

[JohnR725]

Background history of the watch is what? What was the watch doing before you attempted to do what to it?

 

[tonydagee]

I purchased new about 30 years ago, very little use and working well. Hardly worn, very clean.lower pivot pallet fork # and replaced on reassembly. I tried to follow best practice oiling, etc.thanks!

tonyg 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, tonydagee said:

Stops as soon as tiny pressure applied from above.

This indicates little end shake on staff thus minimal variation between FD and FU positions.  

1 hour ago, tonydagee said:

 on reassembly the swing is about 20 degrees only, if at all.

Will you elaborate on this, not clear.

[tonydagee]

I purchased new about 30 years ago, very little use and working well. Hardly worn, very clean.lower pivot pallet fork # and replaced on reassembly. I tried to follow best practice oiling, etc.thanks!

tonyg 

 

FD…FU….sorry, not familiar with terminology.

Theres plenty of energy at the pallets though.

FD…FU….sorry, not familiar with terminology.

Theres plenty of energy at the pallets though.

[Nucejoe]

FD stands for face down and PD for pendeant down, so on .... FU , PU...

Little end shake is good. 

Good grade movements powered Certina watches. 

I am not clear what you mean by " on reassembly the swing is about 20 degrees" perhaps a type and  you meant 200degrees .

1 hour ago, tonydagee said:

 

Theres plenty of energy at the pallets though.

So the issue is somewhere in the escapement, 

Does the balance swing freely?  Thats the first thing I check, I put only  the balance & Cock assembly back on the mainplate, check how freely the oscilator swings.

Before you tear the movement again, see if hairspring rubs on balance spokes or the cock.

How did you clean the pallets/ fork. 

Rarely impulse jewel gets loose, specially if it was shellaced and lost the shellac in cleaning fluids.

Rgds

[mikepilk]

Do you have a timegrapher? If so, can you post some pics?

I like Certina, I have a couple , as @Nucejoe says, they use good quality movements.

For an explanation of positions : https://adjustingvintagewatches.com/adjusting-to-5-positions-wristwatch/

[tonydagee]

Well, I’m still Scratching my head over this.

scratching my head over this.

The balance and the palettes were gently washed in hexane

thereafter dried. I checked the balance for conformity on a tack.

on réinstallation the amplitude seemed better but now is extremely low, 40 degrees or thereabouts observed.

i don’t yet have a timegrapher…

should I remove the chatons on the balance and check again?

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, tonydagee said:

40 degrees or thereabouts observed.

 40 degrees is about the lift angle. 

A video will be useful. of oscilator's running , top view (streight looking down ) and of side view of the coil. 

 

 

[JohnR725]

On 1/8/2023 at 12:31 AM, tonydagee said:

I purchased new about 30 years ago, very little use and working well. Hardly worn, very clean.lower pivot pallet fork # and replaced on reassembly. I tried to follow best practice oiling, etc.thanks!

So we got some background history you're the original owner and it was in good running condition at one time. Versus the mystery watch that you purchased off of eBay and we have no idea what its past history is so that's good background history. Although if everything is so nice and clean why exactly are you working on this watch anyway? In other words was there a problem?

Then cleaning procedure did you clean the entire watch did you take the mainspring out?

3 hours ago, tonydagee said:

The balance and the palettes were gently washed in hexane

Okay we got answer the balance in the pallet fork was clean but what about the rest of the watch was it cleaned? If so how was it cleaned

On 1/8/2023 at 12:31 AM, tonydagee said:

I tried to follow best practice oiling, etc.thanks!

Maybe you should elaborate what oils and where did you use them?

Then experience how many watches have you serviced? In other words is this your first watch or just the first watch that's not running correctly?

The other thing is this looks like a smaller watch should be a little harder to see. The reason I bring this up it may not even be a cleaning procedure look in look at your hairspring is it flat isn't touching the balance arms for instance is amazing how much amplitude you can lose that hairspring isn't exactly where it's supposed to be.

[Nucejoe]

On 1/8/2023 at 12:01 PM, tonydagee said:

lower pivot pallet fork # and replaced on reassembly.

Not clear.

[tonydagee]

I serviced the watch as an excercise….in a drawer for 30 years!

I’m a novice , more or less! Yes, I did service the mainspring, 8200 applied and used vintage winder for reassembly. I tried to oil according to best practice 9010, D5, DX etc;

on reassembly, the hairspring isn’t concentric, I’ll attach a photo( or video… if I can). I can’t observe any fouling of the hairspring in an axial direction.

[Nucejoe]

 Is the video a GIF?   or show the actual oscilation. You can post a vid on youtube and give us the link to it.

 Notice the center wheel turning way faster than any escapement might require, so if this vid shows the actual oscialtion, pallet jewel  might be missing some escape teeth, due to misallignment/ pallet jewel having moved deep into fork groove,  etc.  

 So back to my previous question,  " how did you clean the fork and pallet) , you could have lost some shellac as you cleaned the pallets and pallets have moved as a result.

 

 

 

Just now, Nucejoe said:

 Is the video a GIF?   or show the actual oscilation. You can post a vid on youtube and give us the link to it.

 Notice the center wheel turning way faster than any escapement might require, so if this vid shows the actual oscialtion, pallet jewel  might be missing some escape teeth, due to misallignment/ pallet jewel having moved deep into fork groove,  etc.  

 So back to my previous question,  " how did you clean the fork and pallet) , you could have lost some shellac as you cleaned the pallets and pallets have moved as a result.

 

 

 

Impulse jewel should pass over the fork, should not rub on it.

1 hour ago, tonydagee said:

 the hairspring isn’t concentric, 

 So, it still should have a good swing and the watch will keep time ...etc. 

Are you sure hole jewels of the balance are clean ? did you peg them? 

[tonydagee]

Thanks for the YouTube tip Nucejoe, I’ll upload a short.

that’s the 4th wheel  rotatingfast, the centr wheel is under its own bridge deeper into the movement https://youtube.com/shorts/4QEd9FZrlJE?feature=share

[nickelsilver]

The regulator looks like it might be slightly touching the 4th wheel, I would check that. Hairspring looks deformed but difficult to say more than that from the photos. That could be the entire problem.

[Nucejoe]

Oops my free VPN wont open youtube. Have to download a new VPN daily.

Plenty of knowlegable members here to work with you. 

Above diagnostic holds true if the 4th wheel is actually roating so fast, thats the fork pallets missing escape tooth, ( random lock). 

Drastic loss of amplitude can be due to loose impulse jewel.

Good luck pal

 

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Notice the center wheel turning way faster than

This is one of those peculiar layered watches you're not seeing the center wheel that's the fourth wheel with a sweep wheel or something. If you look at his assembly pictures you can see the center wheel is underneath and it's under a plate we can't even see it. But I would agree that when you look at it and are not years percent paying attention it definitely does not look right until you grasp and see all of the assembly pictures and grasp what were looking at so yes I had the same initial this doesn't look right until I could see what's actually going on.

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The regulator looks like it might be slightly touching the 4th wheel, I would check that. Hairspring looks deformed but difficult to say more than that from the photos. That could be the entire problem.

Then yes the regulator looks like it's definitely not where it's supposed to be. Plus hairspring issues a classic problem for all of us when we were learning. Okay hairspring issues to be technically correct is a problem for all of us. But I suspect it's purely hairspring issues. It's amazing how bad a watch will run if the hairspring isn't where it's supposed to be. In other words classically the hairspring will be touching the balance arms and that means the balance will not rotate very far at all.

[tonydagee]

Thanks everyone, I’ll check the regulator arm.

on reflection, the case knife slipped into that area when opening, maybe the arm was affected…!

Ok I checked. It’s the regulator arm!

see the original before stripdown

Lucky I took photos while stripping down!

how do I safely restore the arm to its correct position?

[Nucejoe]

Tony, when I first started this hobby, I thinkered with and often cobbled a watch out of scraps.

 I must say, this is a quality in- house movement, so if I may suggest it best be put aside for now.

Plenty of cheap watches good for practice out there, soon you will gain the experience and dexterity to fix your Certina, like to see it running accurate  on your wrist. 

Rgds

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

Tony, when I first started this hobby, I thinkered with and often cobbled a watch out of scraps.

 I must say, this is a quality in- house movement, so if I may suggest it best be put aside for now.

Plenty of cheap watches good for practice out there, soon you will gain the experience and dexterity to fix your Certina, like to see it running accurate  on your wrist. 

Rgds

 

 

 

The regulator arm doesn't look damaged, its just a matter of sorting hairspring coil.

[tonydagee]

Ok I checked. It’s the regulator arm!

see the original before stripdown

Lucky I took photos while stripping down!

how do I safely restore the arm to its correct position?

[nickelsilver]

The regulator arm can be moved just by pushing it. Then, when it's close (when the rate is close) you can fine tune its position by turning the screw on top of the balance cock that engages it. But it can be moved independently of that screw.

[tonydagee]

Good idea Nucejoe, it’s a well simple ,well engineered movement and the quality first class all the way.Suprised me when I first opened it ,belied the simplicity of the exterior presentation on the dial.

im going to try to improve things on the balance regulator with simple measures and take it from there.

Everything is a work in progress in our hobby, no?

tonyg 

[tonydagee]

Hello all,

well, after much tinkering, re cleaning escapement and oiling…success!Many thanks to all who advised and inspired me to keep going, really appreciated.i

It’s running really fast though.

must get a weishi….

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Do you have a smartphone with a slow motion or supoer slow motion feature?  Would be nice to see a video in slow motion.  Like this.

[tonydagee]

WHAT a brilliant idea. Genius!

I’ll take a look inside tomorrow.

i’ll take a look inside tomorrow.

Thanks!