Close/adjust regulator pins?

[mbwatch]

I'm finishing up an Elgin 6s that had several firsts for me - reset a sprung safety pinion, I had to adjust the hairspring collet per Mark's video, as it was way out of beat. The screw in banking pins were also way out.

The last thing I find is now that the hairspring has been turned on the staff, it no longer makes continuous contact with the regulator pins and thus runs erratically 5min slow. How do I go about safety addressing this? Is it a matter of just gently tweezing them closed? Should the hairspring touch the inner pin or the outer one (inner is my assumption, currently it contacts the outer just momentarily on the swing)

I didn't think to photograph the hairspring when it was off the balance cock but it looks good, concentric and even. When installing it onto the cock, I placed the stud flush. End shake feels right to me but I have very limited experience.

[Nucejoe]

38 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

 Is it a matter of just gently tweezing them closed?

Nice to have bergeon tool 3007 for the task, risky to do free hand with tweezers.

Rgds 

 

[JohnR725]

Is this a flat hairspring Or a over coil hairspring? It looks flat the picture but I can't really tell 100%

[mbwatch]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Is this a flat hairspring Or a over coil hairspring? It looks flat the picture but I can't really tell 100%

It is a flat hairspring. And unlike other Elgins I have worked with, the hairspring does not always settle between the regulator pins on its own; sometimes it just misses to the inside of the coil and I have to nudge it in

[mikepilk]

17 hours ago, mbwatch said:

The last thing I find is now that the hairspring has been turned on the staff, it no longer makes continuous contact with the regulator pins

I don't understand what you mean by "hairspring turned on the staff" ?

Is the hairspring a bit low to sit between the pins properly?  Is it coned down slightly - it looks like it might be from your pic? If so, move the stud up a touch - they don't always sit flush

[Nucejoe]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Is this a flat hairspring Or a over coil hairspring? It looks flat the picture but I can't really tell 100%

Yes, this is possibly the wrong spring, enough space there for an overcoil. 

Rgds

[mbwatch]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I don't understand what you mean by "hairspring turned on the staff" ?

I meant turning its collet to center the impulse jewel.

I'll try moving the stud up a little bit, I hadn't paid close attention to its original depth before I disassembled this watch and it isn't possible to tell from any of my disassembly photos. You're right I think - It does appear coned ever so slightly downward, it is barely perceptible.

Ergh. And now I need to put this aside. I managed to break the balance staff while reinstalling it after adjusting the stud. It must not have been seated in the jewel hole and I moved complacently to screw it down. I don't have a staking set yet so this will stall until I get ahold of a donor grade 121.

Is it safe to assume the balance completes would not usually be interchangeable between 6s grades 121 (this one) and 117 (apparently more plentiful)?

[JohnR725]

51 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

donor grade 121

I was going to ask a question but this answers part of the question this is a grade 121.

51 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Is it safe to assume the balance completes would not usually be interchangeable between 6s grades 121 (this one) and 117 (apparently more plentiful)?

To answer this we need to do a little more research but typically escapement components don't always interchange because on these watches this age everything was adjusted to the particular watch. So unlike a modern balance wheel where you can just swap it swapping of vintage usually has undesirable consequences it's much better if you can fix whatever you have.

Then because pictures and information are usually missing in these questions here is a link showing a little bit of information about the watch

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/elgin/grade/121

Then the website for cross-referencing engine parts and looking up Elgin parts

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

Now the nice thing about the website above is you can look up the part that you want or think you want in this case a balance complete and you can enter the place below and you get a cross reference to all the watches that are supposed to have the same balance complete.So it looks like 121 balance complete would be the same one.

But if you go back to the main page for your grade and look at the notes in the body will notice the reference of lots of variations. So any time a watch was made over time they were made in batches there will be variations or can be variations amongst the different batches and there can be definitely variations amongst the different grades of parts even if they say they interchange. Which is why it's better if you were broken staffed only replace the balance staff

Let's look at the balance staff looks like it's part number 868 Except on the cross reference listing the 121 is not coming up that's a problem? This means I have to go to physical PDF book to get to a staff Number and it looks like it still 868. But this is a warning typical with American balance staffs especially Elgin one number can be different staffs see us of an older version a new version and a different lengths I'm attaching an image

Then well and looking up things your hairspring it is a flat hairspring. But some of the six size watches will have an over coil type hairspring and conceivably the balance wheel might the same balance wheel but it is a different hairspring.

 

 

[mbwatch]

46 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Let's look at the balance staff looks like it's part number 868 Except on the cross reference listing the 121 is not coming up that's a problem? This means I have to go to physical PDF book to get to a staff Number and it looks like it still 868. But this is a warning typical with American balance staffs especially Elgin one number can be different staffs see us of an older version a new version and a different lengths I'm attaching an image

Thanks as always for your research. I had arrived at part 868 earlier but not the old vs new style. Considering my serial number is 4,5xx,xxx I will be looking at a new style shorter 868 staff.

For months I have been preparing to buy a staking set and this is probably the appropriate time to make the investment. The 868 NS staffs look to be in plentiful supply and I have read or watched a dozen tutorials on how to replace one.