Waltham 1883 pocket watch - Letting down power

[signcarver]

Hi,

I am disassembling a Waltham 1883 pocket watch. The crown is integrated into the case so when i remove the movement from the case i have nothing to hold onto when i move the click to release the power on the mainspring. I don't see anyway to separate the crown from the case.

I have seen pictures of some Waltham cases where it looks like there is a set screw in the case that may release the crown as a separate piece. Unfortunately, mine is not one of those.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[jdm]

33 minutes ago, signcarver said:

I am disassembling a Waltham 1883 pocket watch.

Please post good pictures of all aspects of the problem to help others help you. That is necessary with most repair questions.

[grsnovi]

There are bench keys for most old pocket watches. When you remove the stem from the case and have the movement, there is a stem in the movement with a square socket in the keyless. The bench key for the Elgin I was working on looks like this (between the tweezers and the steel rule - it has different square sizes on each end). I got this one from https://www.daveswatchparts.com/ He was easy to deal with and helped me to get the correct size tool.

I suspect that buying the tool for a single job would be silly if you are at all handy. You could measure the size socket, buy some square stock (or file some to size) and use in a pin vise. You might also get away with using a screw driver with a width equal to the corner to corner width of the socket - but using square stock would be better (less likely to bugger up the socket).

Edited July 31, 2022 by grsnovi
added "make your own"

[MrRoundel]

Yes, you're pretty much going to need a let-down key to do the job safely. I suppose you could pull the sleeve and stem from the case pendant and use the crown/stem combo, but it's a bit tricky and you might end up springing the sleeve that threads into the pendant. And you'd be messing with the important depth of it as well. Forget I mentioned it.

If you look on da Bay, you might find a K&D let-down key that has one bar on the handle, which is the largest one. That will be the size you'd need for an 18s Waltham like an 1883 model, regardless of the grade. BTW, a serial number would be helpful to establish the likely grade. Images work as well. Good luck.

 

 

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, signcarver said:

I am disassembling a Waltham 1883 pocket watch. The crown is integrated into the case so when i remove the movement from the case i have nothing to hold onto when i move the click to release the power on the mainspring. I don't see anyway to separate the crown from the case.

That is standard for most American pocket watches the stem and crown Are part of the case and the movement is a separate item.. Then as others have mentioned you definitely need the let down keys to both wind the watch and let the power off. 

13 hours ago, signcarver said:

I have seen pictures of some Waltham cases where it looks like there is a set screw in the case that may release the crown as a separate piece. Unfortunately, mine is not one of those.

The problem is the American pocket watch cases have lots of variables. For instance the setscrew variety is typically found on lever set watches because there is no need to pull the crown into setting. If the crown pulls into a setting position you have a sleeve and I would really try not to mess with that if it's working as if you break it there won't be a replacement typically.

As others have mentioned you need bench keys standard for working on American pocket watches. I've attached some pictures of bench key is and a few keys for key wind watches. Worst-case grab a piece amenable in a file and just make a key. Do not try to use your screwdriver as others have it doesn't always end well and getting replacement components can be a challenge. Although you could file a screwdriver down to be Square to fit in if you can find one the right size that would give you handle the hold onto.

Even notice in the images there's plans for bench key is as at one time this is a standard project for students taking watch repair.

Then I have a image of what the watch looks like from the parts catalog. The problem is it is a model number but it had lots and lots of variations. You definitely want to get pictures when you disassemble or otherwise putting it back together might be interesting. Then of course this is a full plate there are certain challenges with full plates.

Also if you have your serial number you can look up the watch at the link below.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/

 

[KarlvonKoln]

Yep, bench keys are your friends here.  The web site - Dave's Watch Parts - should have a few, and at good prices.  If Ebay fails you, check Dave's also.

[signcarver]

Thank you all so much. I need the straight letdown key like JohnR725 posted in his top picture. I didn't know they existed. Thanks again to all who took time to read my post and answer.

Forgot to say (guess this would have been helpful in my original post - sorry - new to this... - 

Here is my specific watch (looked up by serial number).

My movement is serial number 8513419 and has Appleton Tracy and Co. (a.k.a A T & Co.) stamped on the movement.

Edited August 1, 2022 by signcarver

[MrRoundel]

The Appleton Tracy & Co. grade is one of the highest grades of '83 model. It was close between it and the Crescent St. '83. Some of the ones with nickel plates are gorgeous to look at. Even the gilt models are fabulous. The dials are usually the right amount of fancy for my tastes. And the stock hands are often a cut above as well.  If the only thing the watch needs is a clean and oil, you're fortunate.

Just be sure that you're very careful when you disassemble the movement. Full-plate movements like the '83 Waltham have what is called a potance that hangs down under the top plate and accepts the lower balance pivot. The trouble comes because the fingers of the pallet fork extend into the potance, with the fork side on the lower plate. Many a full-plate movement has broken pallet pivots because people took them apart without making sure the lower pivot is free of it's jewel before lifting. This is critical.

In addition, when you put it back together, it's generally best to assemble the watch upper plate down. I believe that I have used a 16s movement holder to hold the 18s upper plate while upside down. I know I posted about it on the NAWCC MB a year or two back. Good luck. Cheers.

 

 

[signcarver]

1 hour ago, MrRoundel said:

The Appleton Tracy & Co. grade is one of the highest grades of '83 model. It was close between it and the Crescent St. '83. Some of the ones with nickel plates are gorgeous to look at. Even the gilt models are fabulous. The dials are usually the right amount of fancy for my tastes. And the stock hands are often a cut above as well.  If the only thing the watch needs is a clean and oil, you're fortunate.

Just be sure that you're very careful when you disassemble the movement. Full-plate movements like the '83 Waltham have what is called a potance that hangs down under the top plate and accepts the lower balance pivot. The trouble comes because the fingers of the pallet fork extend into the potance, with the fork side on the lower plate. Many a full-plate movement has broken pallet pivots because people took them apart without making sure the lower pivot is free of it's jewel before lifting. This is critical.

In addition, when you put it back together, it's generally best to assemble the watch upper plate down. I believe that I have used a 16s movement holder to hold the 18s upper plate while upside down. I know I posted about it on the NAWCC MB a year or two back. Good luck. Cheers.

 

 

Thank you MrRoundel. Excellent information which i will heed!

[MrRoundel]

YW for the info, signcarver. I checked my post on the NAWCC board and found that I was using the 16s movement holder to assemble a couple of 1857 model Walthams. With luck it will work with an '83 as well. I just don't know for certain. If I can test it out soon I will post later with an update. Cheers.

 

[signcarver]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:11 PM, grsnovi said:

I got this one from https://www.daveswatchparts.com/ He was easy to deal with and helped me to get the correct size tool.

 

Thank you grsnovi. I was able to find the exact tool i needed. Bought the tool there and had a great experience with https://www.daveswatchparts.com.