Adjust amplitude

[rossjackson01]

Not so much of a novice now, but still an early learner. I can disassemble, assemble. Everything works. 

I have an Adroid phone which I use for my testing. I can adjust both the time rate and beat error by the lever adjusters on the balance cock. I regularly make the rate readings +-3 and the beat error 0.3 Good fun.

However I do notice on many of my assembles that the amplitude is quite short. Low 100s. Visual observation only. The usual effect is that the watch stops often. A shake restarts.

How is the amplitude altered? Can't seem to find any videos on that.

Any help and advice would be appreciated. 

Many thanks

Ross

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

How is the amplitude altered?

advanced amplitude adjustment is not a beginner's field requires a special tool. You can only obtain the special tool once you complete the special test and complete the form all 100 pages of it is submitted in triplicate to.

I wish it was that simple yes that would be simple if that's how you adjusted amplitude.  If your watches truly running 100° you have a very very serious problem.  If you had an Omega for instance at the end of 24 hours some other watches they might accept 160° only for those keeping time.

Simplistically your watch running sucks there isn't  sort of an adjustment for the.. It's basically back to the beginnings of did you change the mainspring, have you properly lubricated, could we have a picture of the watch they are talking about so we can see what you're talking about.

This is where a real timing machine would be really nice. Because with a real timing machine like the Chinese 1000 or preferred 1900 it would really help for diagnostics.

If you amplitude is really running at 100° now how long until the watch stops Kennedy even run overnight?

so in order to run 100° mainspring set  although even a set mainspring will run a watch better than 100° at least was fully wind but it would die really really fast. ssimplistically basically everything the watch can be a problem with the running that while.

Nine then yes there are escapement adjustments but let's get a picture the watch that you talking about.. Start with the basics give us the history what have you done to it.

53 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

I have an Adroid phone which I use for my testing

wwhat exactly do you do with your android phone in your watch?

 

 

 

[jdm]

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

How is the amplitude altered?

There is no direct 'adjustment' for amplitude, as that's simply the result of a myriad of both intrisec design constraints that can't be altered, and physical errors, imperfections, or plain faults that range from quite severe to very small.

That being said if the balance oscillates very little, and stops regularly the fault should be large enough to be immediately discernible for an experienced repairer. Unfortunately I know well that is not the case as for hobbysts, beginners, which includes myself BTW. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by jdm

[rossjackson01]

JohnR725

"what exactly do you do with your android phone in your watch?"

The phone won't fit in the watch. Ha ha.

The app I use is 

'Watch Accuracy meter'

Placing the phone microphone next to the watch. Press test. After a 30sec check period 3 results are displayed. bhp. rate + -. beat error. The result is shown on the display. It can be saved for recording. Options of dial position are available in the saving.

Regards

Ross

[ifibrin]

I think the best thing you can do for your hobby now is to get a Chinese timegrapher, like the wei Shi 1000.

If you are sure that the amplitude is that low in all the movements you’ve worked on, you really need to inspect all the pivots on the train of wheels, and the balance wheel, and the jewels. In a movement without lubrication, but is otherwise fine, the amplitude at full wind is normally at least 240deg… I would normally investigate the end shake as well, but it seems unlikely that the end shakes are all out in all your movements.

[rossjackson01]

Think it's me. But I'm not giving up. Dissemble my last 4 rebuilds today. Will start another clean. Then back to the desk.

Ross

[ifibrin]

Have you inspected all the train wheel jewels, and pivots? That the most obvious place to start, and the most likely place to find issues in old watches that have never been serviced.

Edited July 7, 2022 by ifibrin

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

'Watch Accuracy meter'

Placing the phone microphone next to the watch. Press test. After a 30sec check period 3 results are displayed. bhp. rate + -. beat error. The result is shown on the display. It can be saved for recording. Options of dial position are available in the saving.

pick one ear watches that isn't running well give us some pictures of what the phone app is showing us. Now I really would try to get a Chinese timing machine 1000 at the minimum 1900 if you can afford the money. The reason I say this is it measures amplitude it doesn't look like for the link I have that yours does. The problem with apps in watch repair discussion groups is often times the people a been led astray by faulty data and they really don't work that well. So basically we could waste a lot of time if your app isn't perfect and your app has a problem of what's the amplitude

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.watchaccuracymeter.app

then let's do an experiment? As you have no way of measuring amplitude let's calibrate you. yes the wording may seem strange but we don't know if you're actually calibrated to correctly read the amplitude at all. It's one of the reasons I bought it newfangled digital timing machine was so I didn't have to figure this out as often times it's really hard for people to grasp what they're seeing

5 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Low 100s. Visual observation only

now that number may be too low for us but I have a video. Let's pretend you're going calibrate a timing machine. In other words you look at the video and get a clue as to what 180° look like if your watch can't hit 180 you have a really really serious problem.

https://youtu.be/-Xgcck692js

then this is why I usually tell people to start with the Chinese 6497 clone. You start with a running watch you know where you stand and it's usually a good way to go. How do curiosity are you trying to fix broken watches? In other words the watch wasn't running in the first place and still is it running because of that's what you're doing that the problem may be the watch needs more than just cleaning.

May case went to give us a picture of the watch are having a problem with her one of them it helps of we can see a picture of what you're dealing with. Then a picture of the timing app results would be nice

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Without good magnification you may be missing faults in the escapement. 

 

[Kalanag]

To raughly check the amplitude (and to verify the app) you can take a slomo video of the oscillating ballance with your cell phone.

[rossjackson01]

As requested. Display of the app.

Watch Accuracy Meter - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPY_U7qAOzg

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by rossjackson01

[grsnovi]

Ross - what watches/movements are you talking about? Have you replaced components in all of them? What have you done with regard to the mainsprings? Have you replaced them with new mainsprings, cleaned and replaced the old mainspring, replaced into the barrel by hand, replaced into the barrel with a mainspring winder? Have we discussed your wash technique?

[JohnR725]

when were talking about amplitude yes we can adjust things to get it better we can also just things the make it worse to a certain degree. But amplitude is really a reward for a job well done. Typically you shouldn't have to make adjustments unless other people of done it before you.

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

Ross - what watches/movements are you talking about? Have you replaced components in all of them? What have you done with regard to the mainsprings? Have you replaced them with new mainsprings, cleaned and replaced the old mainspring, replaced into the barrel by hand, replaced into the barrel with a mainspring winder? Have we discussed your wash technique?

Two have new stems. 1 has new escape wheel. 2 have new balance replacements from movements (ebay). 1 has replacement barrel bridge. All parts a cleaned with lighter fluid. I have cleaned all mainsprings by hand and replaced by hand (with cots). I have mobeus 2010, D5 and Molykote DX. I oil as per instructions from members and pdf's. 

Watch movements ETA 2789-1. Replacement parts from 2789-1 and 2789 movements. 

Seiko 7S26. Replacement parts from 7S26A movement

Seiko 7009. Replacement parts from 7009A movement

Seiko 6309. Replacement parts from another 6309 movement.

Seiko 6319. Replacement parts from another 6319 movement.

Every watch eventually works, but when running are low amplitude by sight. All stop after a short time.

The only thing I am not comfortable with, and have only attempted once, is removal of the balance jewels. Did it for the ETA 2789-1 and spent three weeks getting the spring back in.

The only one that works correctly after reassembly is the new movement  ST3600 I purchased for Mark Lovick's course.

I have dissembled a Citizen 8200a. Cleaned and made ready to reassemble. Don't hold out much hope, but will let you know on this one. 

Ross

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by rossjackson01
information

[jdm]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

.Watch movements ETA 2789-1. Replacement parts from 2789-1 and 2789 movements. 

Seiko 7S26. Replacement parts from 7S26A movement

Seiko 7009. Replacement parts from 7009A movement

Seiko 6309. Replacement parts from another 6309 movement.

Seiko 6319. Replacement parts from another 6319 movement.

I can speak only about Seiko. First, they normally run with a reduced amplitude by a at least 50 deg compared to the Swiss. That is because they have excellent industrial desing and strict mass produced tolerances,  so to can use less mainspring energy (amplitude) to delivery the same timekeeping performances.  However due these strict tolerances if any thing not 100% perfect in the hairspring and escapement, they will do exactly as you noticed. And that is also why they are not a good choice for beginner, and even avoided by some so called professionals. There is no margin of error when you want a cheap Seiko to run good. At the factories that made (and still makes) thousands of pieces a day, the ones that don't perform  are scrapped and crunched and nobody knows about.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Two have new stems. 1 has new escape wheel. 2 have new balance replacements from movements (ebay). 1 has replacement barrel bridge. All parts a cleaned with lighter fluid. I have cleaned all mainsprings by hand and replaced by hand (with cots). I have mobeus 2010, D5 and Molykote DX. I oil as per instructions from members and pdf's. 

Watch movements ETA 2789-1. Replacement parts from 2789-1 and 2789 movements. 

Seiko 7S26. Replacement parts from 7S26A movement

Seiko 7009. Replacement parts from 7009A movement

Seiko 6309. Replacement parts from another 6309 movement.

Seiko 6319. Replacement parts from another 6319 movement.

Every watch eventually works, but when running are low amplitude by sight. All stop after a short time.

The only thing I am not comfortable with, and have only attempted once, is removal of the balance jewels. Did it for the ETA 2789-1 and spent three weeks getting the spring back in.

The only one that works correctly after reassembly is the new movement  ST3600 I purchased for Mark Lovick's course.

I have dissembled a Citizen 8200a. Cleaned and made ready to reassemble. Don't hold out much hope, but will let you know on this one. 

with this track history you definitely have a pattern of there's something you're not doing or you're not doing it correctly.

So the movement purchased for Mark class is running because it was always running so that tells us you're not doing anything destructive when you're trying to service the watch your just not doing anything that improves nonrunning watches. in other words you still haven't learned how to properly service a watch. Seeing as how you keep having the same thing happen over and over again we need to stop and look at one watch pick one probably not the Seiko is based on JDM's remark of your not there to that level of perfection might yet so I pick a Swiss watch.

Let's get a breakdown of where do you put the lubrication's?

Then why did you replace all the components did you perceive that there are bad in some way? Fortunately you're dealing with modern watches of this had a bin vintage that would've been your problem right there because vintage watches parts don't interchange usually not without adjustments

I suppose you should finish doing the watch are currently doing a will see what happens

otherwise let's start with the ETA 2789-1 and see if we can figure out what the problem is.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

Thank you for the comments JDM and JohnR725.

The only components I replaced were those that were damaged or corroded. Only 1 item per watch.

The ETA was the reason I took up this hobby. My original purchase. 2789-1,  purchased with a broken stem, no crown. These I obtained from new. The balance spring was bent and distorted. The escape wheel was damaged by me. I obtained a replacement which I also damaged. I then obtained a 2789 movement for the escape wheel and the balance. 

3 hours ago, after both your comments. I rewound the 2789-1 and it looked great. Massive amplitude, and it's still going. Don't know how you did it from there, but I'm grateful. Video attached as requested. It's running fast, but I'll fix that in the morning.

You are brilliant.

Regards

Ross

[rossjackson01]

Back to the basics for me as suggested. I'm going to start all from the complete disassemble. I can do that. I've noticed that a few of the watches feel 'tight' on the turn of the stem. Has to be me. 

JDM, JohnR725 and grsnovi and all who replied. I am so pleased that you have spent the time to give guidance. 

Thank you

Regards

Ross

Edited July 8, 2022 by rossjackson01

[Paul80]

I wouldn't go by the readings your app is giving, I have tried it a few times both with the phones inbuilt mic and a few plugin options an not once has it given results anywhere near the readings my low end timegrapher gives, I use the old Weishi 1000 which works well.

Using a marker pen put a small mark on the balance then film it in slow motion, most modern smartphones can do slow motion videos, then watch the playback and see what the actual amplitude is by seeing where the little mark swings to in both directions, you may find it's a lot more than the 100 you app is reporting, hopefully, if not then as others have said above, eather a very weak mainspring or something a little tight in the gear train.