Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

The watch came to me in bad shape...broken third wheel, pallet fork, escape wheel, staff, and twisted balance wheel.  The hands were also missing.  Somebody stuck a Craftsman screwdriver into it, no doubt...thinking they could repair it...lol.

Anyway, I found a replacement movement with hands and all, so I replaced the entire movement and kept the original dial.

Full service of the movement followed and I had some issues with the hairspring.  I got it running pretty true and was getting what I think is good amplitude--full 360 degree rotation.

But it was running slow.  Minimum throttle on the regulator and just way slow.  So I removed a pair of timing screws--the point of this post.  Notice in the picture that the screw I removed is a very bright brass whereas the other timing screws are a dull brass.  I assume brass in both cases.  Are these two screws different than the other timing screws?

They attached at the balance beam and I was going to leave them off and compensate for timing by adding timing screws in other locations.

Is this the best course of action?

2022-05-13 08_37_24-20220513_083357.jpg ‎- Photos.png

Posted

That looks like a meantime screw, should be a light friction fit on the threads, and is used to adjust the rate in addition to the regulator. Usually isn't screwed all the way in, should stay with the balance. Check other screws for timing washers and remove those, see how it does. If you need to remove weight still you can trim other screws as needed.

 

360 degrees isn't possible, were you looking at the timing machine's amplitude or the watch itself? The lift angle on some of these is quite low, even below 40; if you're set to 52 you'll get an artificially high reading.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Posted
1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

360 degrees isn't possible, were you looking at the timing machine's amplitude or the watch itself? The lift angle on some of these is quite low, even below 40; if you're set to 52 you'll get an artificially high reading.

I took a slow motion video and will upload it shortly and provide a link.

 

3 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Usually isn't screwed all the way in

They were screwed all the way in and unusually tight.  Tried to just use a pin vise designed for this purpose, but they were too tight, so I used a screwdriver.  I will put them back in as you suggest.

Here is the video.

Posted

That's a full 360 rotation, but only 180 degrees amplitude, which is not that good at all.

Balance wheel amplitude is the angle of rotation from the neutral point (where the wheel would be sitting if the balance was at rest with no power on) and either one of its extremes of rotation (the point where it reverses direction), so half the total rotation from one extreme to the other.

If the amplitude was 360 then the balance would rotate a full 720 degrees from its extreme clockwise position to its extreme anticlockwise position, which as @nickelsilverpoints out, is impossible as the pallet fork would be in the way and hard up against the banking. You would get re-banking, with the impulse jewel crashing into the outside of the fork horns causing the balance wheel to rebound. Sounds like a galloping horse.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Posted
10 minutes ago, Marc said:

That's a full 360 rotation, but only 180 degrees amplitude, which is not that good at all.

Yeah, I recall seeing this definition, but had forgotten it.  Back to the drawing board.

BTW, I determined that it was running fast but measuring on my oscilloscope using my DIY sensor/amplifier.  I measure a full period so that any beat error is compensated.

I put the two timing screws back in and now the amplitude is reduced and the watch is timing slower.

Posted
4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

what I think is good amplitude--full 360 degree rotation.

as others have stated 360° is a very undesirable amplitude. I think usually about 320 is the maximum because anything over he you will have bad things happen.

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

360 degrees isn't possible, were you looking at the timing machine's amplitude or the watch itself? The lift angle on some of these is quite low, even below 40; if you're set to 52 you'll get an artificially high reading

yyes the problem of vintage watches they don't give us a lift angle.. Then yes from the ones that I've measured they can vary by quite a bit and it's really independent of their size.. The ones I've figured out range from anywhere from 38 to 62°..

tthen in addition to lift angle problem if you amplitude is super low often times the timing machine  will look at the middle part of the waveform and give you an abnormally high number. Which means visually your amplitude has to agree with the machine or the machine is having a problem..

 

4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Notice in the picture that the screw I removed is a very bright brass whereas the other timing screws are a dull brass. 

then as others have pointed out that appears to be a mean time screw it's not supposed to ever come out. They're not supposed to be screwed in tight either but sometimes you find him that way. Another way to tell is usually the threaded part is longer. Then of course the thread dimensions are entirely different the usually much finer and are designed to stay in place hopefully. The word hopeful is because of they get played with too much they get loose.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/15644188

obviously not your serial number but close enough. Being as it's a seven jewel watch of that size I'm suspicious as to whether it has a mean time screw or not? because usually mean time screws are associated with better grade balance wheels which would never be found on a seven jewel watch especially of this size. It's possible that somebody is mixing and matching  components before you  and shoving and whatever they had.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

They're not supposed to be screwed in tight either but sometimes you find him that way. Another way to tell is usually the threaded part is longer. Then of course the thread dimensions are entirely different the usually much finer and are designed to stay in place hopefully. The word hopeful is because of they get played with too much they get loose.

As noted earlier, they are very tight.  I have reinstalled them in the same location from where they came.  However, shortly after that I had to leave my little watch shop for a short trip.  Will get back to it on Sunday afternoon at the earliest. 

Now that I know what they are called, I found this forum thread is quite informative.

Edited by LittleWatchShop
Posted

 Does this vid show the actual speed?   I wonder if its like a vid we had  before that wasn't a vid but some sort of GIF whatever and the speed looked abnormally slow. 

 

Posted
11 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Does this vid show the actual speed?   I wonder if its like a vid we had  before that wasn't a vid but some sort of GIF whatever and the speed looked abnormally slow. 

 

No, it is a slow motion video taken with my android phone. Super slomo.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • just a reminder about this test is it's not a perfect test it's a quick test. In other words you can adjust the banking pins that are both the same and visually this test will pass everything looks the same but both banking pins can be in the wrong place. although the majority of time when people are playing with banking pins I don't put them in the same place. one of things have to be careful of is I believe some of the pallet fork measuring tools that actually give you the roller jewel size are actually size so that I get confused? What I mean by this is if you inserted a whatever size in and are always told to go a slightly smaller I thought that the gauge itself its number corresponded to give you the exact number. So a lot of it depends upon the gauge itself I think you do want the roller jewel slightly smaller because it does have to fit in the slot and it does have a little bit a play. But if it's too small you will lose energy so does have to be sized right. Oh other things to check is? I'm attaching an Elgin sheet on checking the escapement I've seen references in the past to making sure that the slot in the four corn is nice and smooth and apparently you can end up with a rough slot and then the recommendation is to polisher clean that up. Not sure how well that's really going to work even if it has been the recommendation of other reference materials. yes art full plate watches fun when they don't work. This is where it's nice to have another set of eyes sometimes as maybe they'll find something you didn't  although that can add other issues. The owner of the shop provides himself on his skills of so now two of my watches have relocated to his bench to solve problems both real and imaginary I'm sure that will get fixed eventually hopefully. But still sometimes another set of eyes might see something that you're not. yes this sort of thing can be quite frustrating. Also makes for an interesting problem unless of course you're the one trying to solve the problem that it's a Escapement Elgin setting up the escapement.PDF
    • I’m not to sure mate! I’ve sent a picture! The crown is off a Tissot 1853 automatic limited edition T115427 A GP19 moto go watch!   
    • For years and I'm still using it I've been using something called SeaMonkey? It's a Mozilla product Basically outscore its Firefox plus an integrated email program. But not the same problems here a lot of times when things are upgraded they tend to be now aimed at very specific browsers like Firefox so I've had to switch to Firefox to respond to any of the messages on the group. So yes they do seem to be getting more browser specific and that may be a reason for others having complications especially if whatever you using hasn't been updated. So yes the world is getting more browser specific perhaps for security reasons. Even though I use a product that is updated on a regular basis is still has problems. So whatever you using for browser should be up to date and if is not recognized it's going to be a problem.
    • I did remember to ask at work and minor complication? Well I suppose technically two separate complications. First off glass mineral glass versus Seiko's Hardlex Glass. Don't know if other companies have their own class or not and a basic class for crystals is probably not the same as window glass it would be more transparent. It becomes obvious if you're looking at a sheet of flat crystal glass versus window glass it's definitely more transparent you can see it when you look at the edges of it window glass looks green. No idea how that changes physical characteristics other than optical. Then we also have thickness like the Seiko five's there crystals are really sick compared to other things and I'm guessing that makes things different. In the first link it talks about Sapphire versus mineral glass. One other thing is bothering me though when I'm reading this is where is the source material? What I mean by this is could we end up with multiple generations of salespeople quoting the same sales tactic or information and we don't actually know because you don't have a source reference? Let me quote something off the website it's brittle oh dear I was sad? Except it's not immune to damage it can crack where shatter under extreme force or impact. So what is the definition of extreme force or impact? Then is that more or less extreme then mineral glass?  Then regarding the price difference while back I had asked the owner where the Sapphire came from and basically wherever he can get the cheapest. So typically ordered from a variety of online supply watch parts in the US and  aliexpress China.. Then yes it does make a difference because we go through a lot of glass crystals and sapphire https://thehorologylab.com/sapphire-crystal-vs-mineral-glass-which-is-best-for-your-watch#google_vignette Then I guess one is glass not glass when it goes by another name? Hardlex Looks like it's purely a Seiko product but now I wonder if other watch companies have their own special glass? I didn't remember from past experience my favorite was people exposed to welding you can find little blobs a metal stuck to the watch case the crystal still intact but there's little burnt holes were bits of metal had actually burnt into the crystal but it was still there. Okay website below starts off with Sapphire sounds good but Apparently it can shatter easier then Hardlex. https://theslenderwrist.com/hardlex-crystal/ One other thing is what I'm reading to websites would be back to I want to see the test results? Often times weren't looking for a subject will find websites where I basically called them these are better than that by the way but sometimes I'll find websites that I will call book review websites were basically the review other websites other material and don't really introduce anything new to the subject. As I said these websites look quite nice which is why I'm giving you a link but where's the test results the definition of extreme how extreme to break a sapphire versus a glass or Hardlex?  
    • What browser are you using Rich? Fine for me using Chrome 
×
×
  • Create New...