No technique...

[grsnovi]

Today I thought I'd go ahead and take he balance off and clean it with some One Dip. Then I got to comparing the pallet fork from the one to the pallet fork from the other and they are different (not on the stones end, on the other end). It looks as if a piece is broken off (the piece that splits the "Y" if you can envision that without a photo). Then I decided to look at the differences between the balances and the balance staff of the one is also different from the other.

I should probably try to get some good close-up shots.

In any case, simply taking the fork and balance from the one doesn't seem to magically drop in place of the fork and balance on the other.

Of course, they were built 16 years apart. 1912 and 1928, so I suppose it's not at all surprising that the same parts in each are not exactly the same.

So, at the moment it's back to being a non-runner - but I feel like with every little set back I'm learning something (and being a PITA to everyone I keep pestering with my questions).

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

n any case, simply taking the fork and balance from the one doesn't seem to magically drop in place of the fork and balance on the other.

Of course, they were built 16 years apart. 1912 and 1928, so I suppose it's not at all surprising that the same parts in each are not exactly the same.

This is why get really excited when people suggest they're going to mix-and-match American pocket watch parts and make a good watch and that's not going to happen typically. American pocket watches were made in batches and matching parts from one batch to another can be problematic. If the watch was made over time matching something from her earlier batch to later batch will be very very problematic.

But it's hard to tell from your description but you may be dealing with the difference between a single roller and a double roller. This often happens with pocket watches you'll see in the parts book you make a reference to before the serial numbers single after it's double and know they definitely will not interchange at all.

I have a link to a YouTube video below.  Notice in the video there making things by machinery which should be made to really close tolerances but? Look at some of the women when their hand fitting the components though actually adjusts the components to fit. So even with all this automated machinery they still had the hands fit. There are getting better at it by the 30s much better but still not perfect. Then if you have that time span like you're looking out that's going be a huge difference

 

 

 

 

 

[grsnovi]

I think this is what's going on. This means that I need to read the footnotes in my Red Elgin Materials Catalogue  

[LittleWatchShop]

Great video...we stand on the shoulders of giants.  I would like to see these machines up close doing their job...study them.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

This is why get really excited when people suggest they're going to mix-and-match American pocket watch parts and make a good watch and that's not going to happen typically. American pocket watches were made in batches and matching parts from one batch to another can be problematic. If the watch was made over time matching something from her earlier batch to later batch will be very very problematic.

But it's hard to tell from your description but you may be dealing with the difference between a single roller and a double roller. This often happens with pocket watches you'll see in the parts book you make a reference to before the serial numbers single after it's double and know they definitely will not interchange at all.

I have a link to a YouTube video below.  Notice in the video there making things by machinery which should be made to really close tolerances but? Look at some of the women when their hand fitting the components though actually adjusts the components to fit. So even with all this automated machinery they still had the hands fit. There are getting better at it by the 30s much better but still not perfect. Then if you have that time span like you're looking out that's going be a huge difference

 

 

 

 

 

Great video John. I love watching old production footage. Makes me wish I was around during those times.

[Michael1962]

What a great video, well movie back then, on Elgin watches.

I know how you feel @grsnovi. I had a stroke in 2014 which has left me with a difference in my eyes as well, as well as nystagmus (flicking eye movement) in my right eye depending on what I am doing with my left eye.

I feel for you having a cloud in your eye. I take if from your description, the cloud is actually optic nerve damage and not the eye lens itself?

I have an issue where my brain is not always able to accurately piece together what my eyes see. Lots of fun. Fatigue makes it worse.

[grsnovi]

So, based on the fact that I did indeed get it running - it didn't run for long. Decided to focus on the balance and pallet and thought that swapping parts with the other movement was the answer. WRONG. Decided to put the original balance and pallet back in but had noticed that some rust had bloomed on the balance cock and hairspring. Soaked it in vinegar overnight and now it's stewing in a WD40 bath. I did however notice that the underside of the balance cock had the serial number stamped in to tie the balance to the main plate. Quite a bit of small rust flakes dropped off during the overnight soak. Also, this was shot using my "new-to-me" 100M28 macro lens that just arrived today.

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

So, based on the fact that I did indeed get it running - it didn't run for long. Decided to focus on the balance and pallet and thought that swapping parts with the other movement was the answer. WRONG. Decided to put the original balance and pallet back in but had noticed that some rust had bloomed on the balance cock and hairspring. Soaked it in vinegar overnight and now it's stewing in a WD40 bath. I did however notice that the underside of the balance cock had the serial number stamped in to tie the balance to the main plate. Quite a bit of small rust flakes dropped off during the overnight soak. Also, this was shot using my "new-to-me" 100M28 macro lens that just arrived today.

How did it get on with the vinegar G . It worries me as its around 90 % water . All the bubbles lol. Indicating that something is going on. The vinegar does work though. Are you soaking in an ipa rinse afterwards? 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[grsnovi]

40 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you soaking in an ipa rinse afterwards

At the moment it's in WD40, then IPA.

Quite a lot of flakes came off...

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

At the moment it's in WD40, then IPA.

Quite a lot of flakes came off...

There is a lot of rust coming away.

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There is a lot of rust coming away

Luckily I just completed Mark's lesson 3.3.7 on the Balance Cock Assembly.

Could be that the rust was holding it together! When I took it out of the WD40 the balance wheel dropped off the cock and there were two really tiny pieces which I realized were the roller and the piece that fits into the cock that actually holds the hairspring.

Tried to fit that back where it goes but as you might imagine it's about the size of a shoe that an ant would wear and it has to be oriented. So, I'm going to take a break while everything soaks in ONE DIP, squeeze my rodico and ponder a slug of Glenfiddich and Drambuie  or maybe some Woodford Reserve bourbon...

Edited May 7, 2022 by grsnovi

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Luckily I just completed Mark's lesson 3.3.7 on the Balance Cock Assembly.

Could be that the rust was holding it together! When I took it out of the WD40 the balance wheel dropped off the cock and there were two really tiny pieces which I realized were the roller and the piece that fits into the cock that actually holds the hairspring.

Tried to fit that back where it goes but as you might imagine it's about the size of a shoe that an ant would wear and it has to be oriented. So, I'm going to take a break while everything soaks in ONE DIP, squeeze my rodico and ponder a slug of Glenfiddich and Drambuie  or maybe some Woodford Reserve bourbon...

I'm wondering if the wd or the vinegar had anything to do with that. That would be the stud that holds the hairspring in the cock. The wd may have reduced some size of the roller. Anything rust removing could also have a tendency to also eat away at the metal as well, the soak may have been too long . I soaked an escape wheel in Rustins rust remover, it completely dissolved it in 6 hours. What is the condition of the hairspring now. This where you need a scope G. Have a look around for a cheap second hand if you don't want to buy new just yet. That will at least give you a feel for the difference in ease of use, you can always sell it on again. Rodico is an expensive stress ball matey, and no please don't turn to drink don't do it, things aren't as bad as they seem .  When I'm fed up I reach for a pack of biscuits because I don't drink, then I can go for a five mile jog and no harm done  

[grsnovi]

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

the stud that holds the hairspring in the cock

It isn't really a stud in this design.

The pieces of the balance are spotless - including the hairspring. I just need to be able to put them back together. Yes, a microscope would certainly help.

I had two wonderfully soft molasses "biscuits" at noon, well before I created this current mess.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

It isn't really a stud in this design.

The pieces of the balance are spotless - including the hairspring. I just need to be able to put them back together. Yes, a microscope would certainly help.

I had two wonderfully soft molasses "biscuits" at noon, well before I created this current mess.

That's good to know that the the rust removing concoction does work. If the hairspring is in good nick then it's unlikely that vinegar or wd would ever damage anything. Good experiment G That's a win for us beginner's don't you think .  Newbies 1 - Pros 6452. Haha.  Yep mate put the bottles away have two more biscuits instead.