Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

I picked this Elgin up off eBay, the ruby's caught my eye.  It was sold as a non runner and it arrived as advertised, but it seems that the mainspring is broken.  If I manually put some tension on the barrel, it starts ticking.  As far as I can tell (thanks to the serial number) this is a grade 487 and should need a 4/0 mainspring...so that's on the way.  The case is really interesting as its made of such thin metal that appears to be plated.  The case back has an insert as well which I have not seen before.  Lots of watchmaker marks on there too!!

20220326_211921880_iOS.jpg

20220326_204728521_iOS.jpg

20220326_204715462_iOS.jpg

20220326_204740415_iOS.jpg

20220326_204752508_iOS.jpg

  • Like 3
Posted

Question:

This says adjusted, but doesn't disclose how many adjustments !     

 How can we go about finding how many positions this actually is adjusted in,  sure it can be observed on TG  if a runner, so would on documents if available, but Is there any other approach to finding the answer? 

TIA 

 

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

Hello Manx. Interesting watch. What size it looks smallish. The insert, if meaning curved rim around  the inside of the case back. To take up the space around the movement to stop it dancing about and damaging it. Also sometimes a sperate spacer with tabs inside the case, a later idea.

Posted
On 3/26/2022 at 9:35 PM, Manxcat said:

I picked this Elgin up off eBay, the ruby's caught my eye.  It was sold as a non runner and it arrived as advertised, but it seems that the mainspring is broken.  If I manually put some tension on the barrel, it starts ticking.  As far as I can tell (thanks to the serial number) this is a grade 487 and should need a 4/0 mainspring...so that's on the way.  The case is really interesting as its made of such thin metal that appears to be plated.  The case back has an insert as well which I have not seen before.  Lots of watchmaker marks on there too!!

20220326_211921880_iOS.jpg

20220326_204728521_iOS.jpg

20220326_204715462_iOS.jpg

20220326_204740415_iOS.jpg

20220326_204752508_iOS.jpg

Ranfft not listing 487. Some Internet is stating 1932 for your serial no.

Posted

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrIQhJ9gFpi988AaBR3Bwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1650127102/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.elginnumbers.com%2f/RK=2/RS=XqrjUmdGG_.jHi87PekGqejJpjE-

this is the elgin site and gives the data for the serial number on the plate.

Date 1932,    Size 4/0s,  Jewels 15/17,  Grade 487, Model 1, Production total 145,000, Hunter case, pendant wind set, case nickle Damaskeening,  going barrel,  adjusted  yes, 3/4 plate

Posted

You can look at your watch in the pocket watch database found at the first link below. Conveniently though they don't have a parts list like pocket watches do? But that's fine you go the second link and get your Elgin parts Numbers.

Then if you look at the parts list and you'll notice that you get a number and you get a thickness. One number can actually be several different mainsprings you need the thickness to get the right mainspring if you have a choice at all. At one time you had choices today it may be stuck with whatever you get. I snipped out an image to show you what I mean by that that's what was available at one time.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/33575252

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

elgin 4789 ms.JPG

Posted

@JohnR725 In your above snip from the Elgin mainspring chart, I know what "steel" is as a material but what is the abbreviation "D.P." for? 

@Manxcat As John points out, you may not have a choice but it seems that yesterday I read somewhere that if you do have a choice you may want to replace an old spring with one slightly less powerful since it's likely that all of the rest of the watch is worn as well.

A fellow on a Facebook pocket watch forum suggested that I pick up a copy of the Elgin Materials Catalog. I found a copy and it's on the way. I suspect that it may be the source for some percentage of the material contained in the pocketwatchdatabase.

Posted
8 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

As John points out, you may not have a choice but it seems that yesterday I read somewhere that if you do have a choice you may want to replace an old spring with one slightly less powerful since it's likely that all of the rest of the watch is worn as well.

There is a prevailing theory that modern mainsprings are stronger for the exact same thickness of a steel mainspring. So the general rule is you would always go with the later spring today. The problem is there a less mainsprings available today.

For instance usually when I'm looking for mainsprings all look at the list of unattached to. It is by no means hundred percent perfect but because me a clue as to whether something's going to exist or not.

12 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

"D.P." for?

Each of the watch companies helmets and an Elgin for instance had their own alloys for hairsprings and mainsprings. So for instance at the link below you'll find dp stands for "Dura-Power", Elgin's 'unbreakable' mainsprings.

http://elginwatches.org/databases/mainspring_info.html

15 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Elgin Materials Catalog.

Which year you getting?

Mainspring - DennisonChart.pdf Mainsprings security American pocket watch.PDF

  • Thanks 1
Posted

Thanks John! I figured the Elgin catalogues were year-based. I'm guessing mine is a 1957. Do the newer books go way back for older parts?

Posted

this isn't a factory model from Elgin. its a replacement case offered by jewelers for when the original case had too much wear.

 

The catalogs that I know of

1888

1898

1914

1925/6 (this is the one that caused all the confusion about miss identifying grades and runs, they reclassified grades to simplify part replacements, this new look up tables were carried forward to the 1950 catalog)

1950

supplements that were mailed out from time to time to update the 1950 catalog)

1958 (This is the final catalog release)

supplements that were mailed out from time to time to update the 1958catalog, the last supplement I know of is 1964)

There is also the Elgin Casing book, released around 1958 and updated around 1963/64 (this is the book you use to replace hands, crystals, gaskets, crowns).

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Posted

@diveboy Didn't see this before I sent my note. I'll be curious to see what's in the Elgin red book that I have on it's way.

Any ideas on finding cases for Elgins that have been stripped?

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

sorry for the delay,  no not much of a chance with your model as both the case and dial have been swapped out, so it would be pot luck as to watch model the movement originally came from.

 

Posted
On 4/21/2022 at 4:20 PM, diveboy said:

The catalogs that I know of

@diveboy, how can you tell which one you have? The one I got has no date inside. The last page of the serial number and grades is page 36 and the last sequence of s/n's is: F937,001 to F999,999 for grade 662.

Handwritten on the price list is: 10-10-49 suggesting that the price list is older than that.

It also has a 20 page insert: Elgin Parts Interchangeability Chart

Posted
3 hours ago, grsnovi said:

how can you tell which one you have?

perhaps a picture of the catalog what does it look like and does it have any pictures of the Elgin parts or is it just purely a book of text?

Posted

Hi John,

Red textured cover with gold lettering. Ring binding. Pages are just tables of part numbers sorted by grade.

 

elgin book.jpg

  • Like 1
  • 3 months later...
Posted

That took some time...Mainspring, the mainspring was definitely broken in two...and the 4/0 was a perfect fit...but during reassembly I noticed the plates didn't really want to go back together so I looked closer...and found a broken jewel.  I got to looking a bit more and found another...so I got another movement.  I realize its not worth the work...but I liked it so I wanted to bring it back.  I rebuilt the new movement which had a bad jewel that the old movement had in good shape...a little swaping and I was in business.  Got the entire thing back together and put it on the timegrapher and it was looking GREAT...until I put it upside down at which point it stopped.  Through a little investigation, I noticed that the balance cock jewel was cracked in 4 directions and was also oblong.  At this point, I became a bit frustrated and set it aside for a few months. 

I had another jewel on the old movement...I was not comfortable changing it, so I hit pause...till today.  Today I finally took it out again, pulled the hairspring off of both assembles, pulled the jewels out, examined them and the old movement had a good jewel so I cleaned it, lubed it, and reassembled everything and threw it on the timegrapher!  It was pretty good right out the gate, I did have to speed it up just a smidge and I did check all directions.  Its not perfect...but it never was and never will be.  I am very happy with the results and threw it back in the case which looks pretty much exactly how it did above.

Meanwhile...I have discovered that vintage amp repair can use some watchmaking tools...who knew!!

20220905_192822592_iOS.jpg

  • Like 1
Posted

Happy to hear you had a positive outcome with that Elgin.

I'm waiting for a bench key and a 2nd grade 409 movement. The one I have has a nice dial and hands but blowing on the balance doesn't get anything going.

I'll probably open it up this weekend.

The grade 409 is a 7j movement, nothing special. The one I have already is from 1914.

(so, what watch tools are you using on vintage amps? my previous amp building efforts made me realize that handling a soldering pencil wasn't my strong suit. The Victoria in the closet hasn't been powered up in years.)

- Gary

Posted (edited)

Specifically, I was attempting to refurb some VU meters.  They are spring loaded with what looks like a hairspring and they have a jeweled bearing on the top and bottom of the pivot the meter moves on.  To be clear, my attempt was not successful...but I also didn't make it worse!! 

I also have a hobby addiction that is related to a tool addiction...so a few months of playing with receivers resulted in a new oscilloscope, a transistor tester, and a 100watt static load!!  The solder rework station and the Fluke meter...those I have had for years.  The most difficult thing so far was rewiring the tonearm in my Dual automatic record player...those things can make a crazy hum with old wires.  As difficult as that was to refurb, watches are still more challenging.

I have picked up another Elgin that looks like this one and a Robot that seems cut from the same thread! 

20220907_035822319_iOS.thumb.jpg.bfb651ea84fef5526a099ed449ec731c.jpg

The round watch movement is not as jeweled and does not work...probably the mainspring...seems like they are all broken.  The spare movement I bought for this project also had a broken mainspring.  I also messed with a Chinese 2650, a friends son had purchased a inexpensive pocket watch that stopped ticking.  It meant alot to him so I took a look. 

20220802_020100527_iOS.thumb.jpg.4f4146d8bb145e0a262effb026a928d5.jpg

The impulse jewel fell out!!  It was just gone, just a hole left...so I grabbed a balance off an $11 movement and got it ticking again.  He also had an Citizen Eco-Drive that the hands fell off of, easy fix there, and the band was falling apart.

20220726_035625694_iOS.thumb.jpg.b895bb9fd2596216bf02f84cf74d45f6.jpg

I do try to stay busy.

Edited by Manxcat
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Manxcat said:

I also have a hobby addiction that is related to a tool addiction...

Don't we all?

I still have a Peterson Strobe Tuner someplace...  🙂

1 hour ago, Manxcat said:

...my attempt was not successful...but I also didn't make it worse!! 

That's the best!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...