My first clean / fix and need advice on mainspring please

[Skyfiller]

Hi all,

So this is my first ever watch project as a very new newbie to watches. It's a 13s, 15 Jewel, 2 adjustment 'PILOT' movement out of a 1927 Aaron Lufkin Dennison silver open faced case.

So far I've stripped it, cleaned it, checked it, reassembled, lubricated it, replaced some missing screws and adjusted the hairspring as it had a 10.8ms beat error. My problem at the moment is it has such a low amplitude and needs a new mainspring. Is it a case of ripping the old one out and forcing it up against a ruler and taking all the measurements, or are they movement specific? 

While we are at it, does anyone know anything about this movement? I have done many google searches for 'pilot' but can only find one other example that was sold at auction a few years ago with no other information about it.

Many thanks, Charlie

[jdm]

13 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

It's a 13s

Do you mean 13"" (lignes). That is what Swiss mov.t use, not the American 's' system.

 

13 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

'PILOT' movement

I don't recognize that maker, but it seems very similar to Cyma below. Please post a dial side picture, as is  needed when identifying uncommon mov.s. 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&Cyma_565

 

13 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

ripping the old one out and forcing it up against a ruler

Ripping and forcing don't apply to watchmaking. The mainspring is carefully removed from the barrel one coil at the time, avoiding any damage to it and yourself. Then, if it has to be measured in length that is done running a wire along it and measuring the latter. However when choosing by size the most important sizes before length (which can way a little) are barrel and arbor dia, height and thickness.

Also, be aware that is the watch has very low amplitude (you should post a picture or two in different positions), the most likely cause is not the mainspring but anything else.

 

[Skyfiller]

34 minutes ago, jdm said:

Do you mean 13"" (lignes). That is what Swiss mov.t use, not the American 's' system.

 

I don't recognize that maker, it seems very similar to Cyma below. Please post a dial side picture, as is  needed when identifying uncommon mov.s. http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&Cyma_565

 

Ripping and forcing don't apply to watchmaking. The mainspring is carefully removed from the barrel one coil at the time, avoiding any damage to it and yourself. Then, if it has to be measured in length that is done running a wire along it and measuring the latter. However when choosing by size  a catalog the most important sizes before length (which can way a little) are barrel and arbor dia, height and thickness.

Also, be aware that is the watch has very low amplitude (you should post a picture or two in different positions), the most likely cause is not the mainspring but anything else.

 

 

Hi JDM,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, it says Swiss Made.

Thanks for the link, it has some similarities. Photo of the dial side below.

My apologies on using the term 'ripping and forcing' they were merely used as a description of action rather than their literal sense. 

It wants to come back to life and as soon as the balance is inserted it ticks away with no encouragement needed. If you give it a little twist it happily ticks away at 270 but then the amplitude slowly reduces and settles around 120 after 30 seconds or so.

BR. Charlie

 

[nickelsilver]

35 minutes ago, jdm said:

Also, be aware that is the watch has very low amplitude (you should post a picture or two in different positions), the most likely cause is not the mainspring but anything else.

 

 

This is 99.9% the case for amplitude problems- in my experience it's rarely the mainspring. From the pic, the balance could be very much out of beat- the balance arms are supposed to be perpendicular to the line along the fork and escape wheel when at rest; it could be in beat, and someone installed the roller table without aligning it. That's one possible source of amplitude loss. Some others:

-hairspring rubbing

-excessive or insufficient endshakes

-wear (in general), in particular at the bearing points of the center wheel and barrel

-escapement out of adjustment

-damaged or worn pivots

-wear in the fork slot, fork pivot holes not perfectly clean (must peg them), debris on the roller jewel, roller jewel not vertical, chipped pallet stone(s)

and probably a dozen other possible things

 

With the balance and fork out (let down the power first!) put a few clicks of wind on it and see how the train moves. It should spin freely, and when it stops, ideally the escape wheel will reverse direction at least a little bit, or even a couple of turns. Now put the fork in, few clicks of wind, and see if it snaps from banking to banking cleanly with a slight nudge. That's a basic check, if it looks good, you can concentrate in the balance area.

[Skyfiller]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

This is 99.9% the case for amplitude problems- in my experience it's rarely the mainspring. From the pic, the balance could be very much out of beat- the balance arms are supposed to be perpendicular to the line along the fork and escape wheel when at rest; it could be in beat, and someone installed the roller table without aligning it. That's one possible source of amplitude loss. Some others:

-hairspring rubbing

-excessive or insufficient endshakes

-wear (in general), in particular at the bearing points of the center wheel and barrel

-escapement out of adjustment

-damaged or worn pivots

-wear in the fork slot, fork pivot holes not perfectly clean (must peg them), debris on the roller jewel, roller jewel not vertical, chipped pallet stone(s)

and probably a dozen other possible things

 

With the balance and fork out (let down the power first!) put a few clicks of wind on it and see how the train moves. It should spin freely, and when it stops, ideally the escape wheel will reverse direction at least a little bit, or even a couple of turns. Now put the fork in, few clicks of wind, and see if it snaps from banking to banking cleanly with a slight nudge. That's a basic check, if it looks good, you can concentrate in the balance area.

Many thanks nickelsilver, appreciate your input. Will try all that tonight.

BR. Charlie

[jdm]

8 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

My apologies on using the term 'ripping and forcing' they were merely used as a description of action rather than their literal sense. 

None is due and please excuse my pedantry, we can all talk tongue in cheek and I just have done and seen too much damage so stilI trying to make saves. Good luck with sorting thus out. 

[nickelsilver]

Is the movement indeed a 13'" (ligne)? If not, can you give the diameter in millimeters? It will help narrow down who made it.

[Skyfiller]

Thanks @jdmJDM

@nickelsilver I make the diameter 40.66 mm

Many thanks, Charlie

 

 

[jdm]

15 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

I make the diameter 40.66 mm

I have looked all the matching mov.ts on Rannft and none is like this, perhaps you should send your pics to him together with the usual data he publishes. 

[Skyfiller]

Thanks @jdm I will send them an email tomorrow.

For completeness here is the link to the other one I found that had sold at auction.

https://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/antique_1918_silver_pilot_pocket_watch/as170a7274

Many thanks again for your help,

Charlie

[JohnR725]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:31 PM, Skyfiller said:

10.8ms beat error.

Out of curiosity what timing device are you using for timing your watch?

[Skyfiller]

@JohnR725A Weishi 1900 with the Lift angle set at 44 (a guess). Just placed it on to get pics for you, except this time it didn't get above 186 to begin with.

Wind it up, and it starts with no encouragement needed. First pic is within the first 30 or so seconds and then this happens?!

 

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

Weishi 1900

 

On 2/16/2022 at 3:31 PM, Skyfiller said:

10.8ms beat error

The reason I asked what you're using is that according to the manual for the machine which am currently looking at just to refresh my memory it's the same as the Swiss machines the maximum beat error that you can measure is 9.9 ms and they would've been nice to get a picture of 10.8 as you supposedly can't do that?

Visually what is the balance wheel look like versus what the timing machine is saying? In other words when it goes to the lower amplitude can you see a decrease in amplitude below hundred and 30° is really bad and should be very visibly it's very bad

Have a couple more pictures? Wind the watch up place it in a crown up position time like you said 30 seconds after you wound it up then wait 15 minutes and give us a second picture of what you're getting.

Normally even with a set mainspring you can run a watch it's not got run over night but you should build a run the watch a shouldn't see a decrease in amplitude like that that fast your losing a heck of a lot of power someplace and as I said the old mainspring should work.

On 2/17/2022 at 2:06 AM, nickelsilver said:

-wear (in general), in particular at the bearing points of the center wheel and barrel

It looks like from the pictures that everything else has jewels for bearings although the quality of this watch suggests the quality the jewels will not be spectacular. But the center wheel doesn't look like it has a jewel and definitely look at that carefully. Especially the dial side is often that's thinner than the other side. If the mainspring barrel doesn't mesh properly with the center wheel pinion Because things are out around that's definitely going be an issue.

 

[Skyfiller]

Thanks @JohnR725that's all really helpful information and I'll have a try over the weekend at what you suggest and take pics.

43 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The reason I asked what you're using is that according to the manual for the machine which am currently looking at just to refresh my memory it's the same as the Swiss machines the maximum beat error that you can measure is 9.9 ms and they would've been nice to get a picture of 10.8 as you supposedly can't do that?

I'm pretty sure that's what it said when it first started working but you've got me doubting myself now...... Looking back at the photos the only one I can find is one that says 9.8ms???? I can remember thinking to myself, 'damn... double figures'!!!.... I think I'm loosing the plot here, long week. You've got a million + times more experience in this as this is the first ever watch I've taken apart so I'm going to go with your correct and I was in never never land that day. Everyday is a school day

C.

 

[JohnR725]

All of the timing machines have their peculiar characteristics And either will show up peculiar things or refused to give you answers. Witschi machines typically for things out of range or words confused it will actually say or give it a cryptic message know it's not going to give you anything. That means you have to start changing settings in the machine to force it to tell you something. In other words taken out of the auto range mode and expands so it can give you something

or the 1000 version Chinese machine if it goes over and the graphical display because it's so small and waxy rollover and still be visible on the display so you can see things it looks like the watches in beat for instance in real life it's grossly out of beat. But usually the numeric display will tell you that Solis tell you it's 9 ms and somebody look at the graphical display of cents fine when it's not

one of the reasons I point out that problem is for the timing machine to really show you correct data the graphical display has to look decent otherwise numeric display may not be telling you the truth. So with the last picture you show the one line that looks really really bad and it does look like it's way far apart on the lines it probably is really nine point whatever milliseconds but when you have one really bad line like that it's going to make it hard for the machine to give you proper amplitude for instance so I would actually question whether the amplitude is right or not.

How do curiosity do you know what she did to make the one line that looks so horrible look better? Usually that's the indication of one side of the escapement's would be one pallet stone. Or something related to that I've even seen with a roller jewel which is common to both sometimes it can wobble and it only shows up on one line.

 

[Skyfiller]

Hi all,

Sorry for late reply, life took over and have been busy with Mark's course. Half way through the second course and thoroughly enjoying it.

On 2/19/2022 at 12:09 AM, JohnR725 said:

How do curiosity do you know what she did to make the one line that looks so horrible look better? Usually that's the indication of one side of the escapement's would be one pallet stone. Or something related to that I've even seen with a roller jewel which is common to both sometimes it can wobble and it only shows up on one line.

Unfortunately @JohnR725 not a clue!

 Received some L&R clean and rinse on Friday and thought I'd give it a go. Up until now I've been using Naptha (lighter fluid) and IPA. WOW.... what a difference, worth every penny. Anyway, totally stripped the movement again and washed in L&R Extra Fine and then 2 rinses in L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinse, pegged, lubricated etc and ended up with this

 

Has been running for 3 days now in various positions with any gain unnoticeable and this is her reading on the Weishi. It is not perfect but she is running constantly now and at this stage I can't ask for any more than that. I guess that something was not perfectly aligned in the movement before or there was a hidden piece of dirt lurking about!

 

A massive thank you to everyone that helped above. I've really enjoyed my first watch and looking forward to many new projects when I've finished Mark's courses. 

So what have I learnt that might help newcomers?

Check, check and triple check your work is something is not right.

Do NOT bother with cheap Chinese tweezers. I started with a set of 6 sold as watchmakers tweezers and have spent a few hours on my knees with a diving magnet during this project. In the end bought a second hand pair off of e-bay from a watchmakers estate for £3 and what a difference, not pretty but they are a joy to use  

You can never have enough trays with dust covers.

Proper cleaning solutions and rinses are worth the money. If nothing else the movement comes out nice and shiny how you want it to look after you have cleaned it.

Probably one of the most important things I've learnt is have a nice working environment. When I started on this project I was working on my home office desk with a keyboard in front of me and clutter everywhere. After watching Mark's first videos I decided to clear a wall in the office and put in a dedicated bench with good lighting. It's now a pleasure to work on a watch, rather than having to move mounds of paperwork out of the way.

BR, Charlie

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Skyfiller
missed a '

[bklake]

Nice work.  I am coming to the realization that there is no substitute for proper cleaning fluids. 

Keep those cheap tweezers so you can learn to tune and sharpen them.  They can be made to be useful with a good tune up.  They will never be as good as Dumont but they will work much better.