Help with a Rolex 645 please.

[SimonKB]

Hi. Have just posted on the newboy section so at the moment my experience is down to Marks' great courses and investigating and repairing a few ,not so important movements. I have though decided to delve into my 645. Have put a picture up so hopefully it will show properly on the post.

As you can see it has had a life! Two months ago it just stopped so I am assuming a good clean and oil will be all that is necessary. I have had a good hunt about but cannot find any procedures so I want to just proceed with care. Can someone identify the top wheel for me(am presuming seconds but not sure). is it just a press fit? what is the top spring holding down? what to be careful of (apart from my own foolhardiness!)

Many thanks

Simon

[Nucejoe]

Its independently driven minute wheel and a press fit.

That top spring is mainly to keep seconds arbour from gittering.

 

[Klassiker]

If you are determined to do this yourself, and I would advise against it If you are not confident in your ability, then as you say, proceed with care. If you lose or damage anything, spares are expensive and hard to find. Also:

At every stage, make sure you know what you are doing and how to do it. Ask here If you are unsure.

Get the right tools for the job before proceeding.

Take lots of photos to remind yourself what goes where.

Keep the parts in functional groups before, during and after cleaning.

Don't rush.

Good luck!

[clockboy]

 The minute wheel is friction fitted and should be removed with care. A straight lift is essential to avoid braking the pivot. There is a specialist tool for this job see link. 
 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/5-spoke-wheel-remover-bergeon

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, SimonKB said:

Two months ago it just stopped so I am assuming a good clean and oil will be all that is necessary.

Do you know when the last time it was serviced?

The reason I'm asking the question up above is modern watches typically don't stop. Vintage watches with organic oils can stop as the oils get sticky and things come.. The modern watches the oils tend to not get sticky and not sail watch can't stop but before assuming it cleaning and oil will help maybe you should see if you can figure out why stopped?

I've muscle attaching parts lists. But just because you have a parts list and you know the parts are available that are probably not available now and if they are available there going to be extremely expensive. Which is why as somebody above hinted at this is not really a good beginner's watch sort of? Sometimes and watch repair painful lessons are good like this watch has the potential of running as soon as we figure out why it's not running. But if in the process of you learning how to repair watches you break it can't get a replacement part then you learn important lesson of not to work on things you shouldn't yet.

Is the watch totally stopped not running at all? Can you wind it from the crown and will it start to run? Visually seeing any problems like this is a Older watch especially with the automatic components It is possible for them to wear out especially if there Metal on metal bearings which was common on early automatic watches.

 

Rolex_Rolex 635.pdf Rolex_Rolex 645.pdf

[SimonKB]

Hi and thanks for all the replies. I understand all your concerns and appreciate the thought but I did not do these courses just to play about. I have already played/practised with many different movements and the time I feel is right.

Yes I will be meticulous, yes numerous photos will be taken(always do), yes I will ask if a problem arises and yes I understand the risk of breakages/spares etc. The auto wind mechanism has always been missing(if anyone knows of one or a contact I would appreciate it) so in fact it is already an incomplete movement and theoretically of little value. I would expect the case and dial are worth more. My set up is pretty good and the 5spoke puller was already on order from Cousens- appreciate the link though.

Just taken this photo and ironically the movement it has decided to spin again quite merrily. Had depowered it and wound it up again so as of now its under observation until further notice!

Watch this space

Cheers

Simon

[Nucejoe]

 Its says timed in six positions, I guess thats the same as adjusted in six positions. It be real nice if you would check timekeeping in FU, FD, PU positions, to see how accurate adjustments still are , it'll give an idea of the level of expertise required for the task your up against. Overall if you perfectly handle the oscilator iand n particulare the overcoil, you should be alright, though pivots might have worn to the extent that can affect adjustments. 

 Its a Chronograde  " of value"   at least technically  and thats what has made everyone here extra sensitive, one would normally entrust such grade movements to hands of a master watchmaker.

I usually put some lighter fluid on jewels, a whole droplet on the settings, it softens dried oil and momenatrely acts as lubricant, put some on escape teeth too, next,   immediately puff air to get the oscilator running hopefully  tg readings be somewhat valid then. 

Good  luck pal.

 

 

 

 

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, SimonKB said:

I understand all your concerns and appreciate the thought but I did not do these courses just to play about. I have already played/practised with many different movements and the time I feel is right.

Well, there doesn't appear to be anything especially challenging abouth the movement itself, just the consequences of a mistake are higher than before. I understand, you are ready to progress, so go for it. Get the movement on the timegrapher to assess its general condition, then get to work. Running it dry will only make it worse.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Its says timed in six positions, I guess thats the same as adjusted in six positions.

 

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

timegrapher to assess its general condition,

Did you notice in the pictures missing is the tinegrapher?

Then yes the watch really is timed to six positions it's a chronometer grade movement. So it should keep phenomenal timekeeping.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Rolex_645

4 hours ago, SimonKB said:

The auto wind mechanism has always been missing(if anyone knows of one or a contact I would appreciate it)

The thing to do it be a keep an eye on eBay and see if one eventually shows up. Then the hope that it's not worn out.  I was looking at eBay right now bits and pieces started around $200 that's not the completed just the main plate and the rotor and it looks like a complete automatic is in the approximately $400 range. So just keep an eye out on eBay and one will show up sooner or later.

[Plato]

5 hours ago, SimonKB said:

I did not do these courses just to play about

That's the spirit! 

[SimonKB]

OK on the timegrapher the s/d was av 41 but has now stopped and so presume sticking. Interested to know what FU,FD,PU positions are though.

Quote

16 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

It be real nice if you would check timekeeping in FU, FD, PU positions

 

I had seen those pieces on Ebay but I think I shall wait for a complete unit. Is Ebay the only source though? Is there not a dedicated place to go other than that?

.....and Plato, Thanks for that

12 hours ago, Plato said:

That's the spirit! 

......Am going in!

Quote

 

 

[SimonKB]

Sorry just remembered

Quote

16 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I usually put some lighter fluid on jewels, a whole droplet on the settings, it softens dried oil and momenatrely acts as lubricant, put some on escape teeth too, next,   immediately puff air to get the oscilator running hopefully  tg readings be somewhat valid then. 

 

Is this a supported action by members? sounds good and as mine is erratic to say the least it may be a starting point before starting the disassembling. 

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, SimonKB said:

Is this a supported action by members? sounds good and as mine is erratic to say the least it may be a starting point before starting the disassembling. 

Sometimes I'll do something similar with hairspring rinse. Place a large drop right on the balance wheel hairspring to see if I can loosen things up. It's not a substitution for cleaning it's just sitting get the thing to run a little and see how it looks on the timing machine.

Some shops taken a step further and do something called pre-cleaning. This is where the hands and dial come off and The entire assembled movement is usually a separate cleaning machine. It's running a shorter cycle to the pre-cleaned the entire watch. Then when they disassemble or work on the watch they can better see the condition of the jewels whether they're cracked they can do their adjustments. Because classically and watch repair your repair the watch first then you clean it. But he oftentimes can't see what you need to see if the watches dirty. This is why they preclean then they do the repairs then they do a final cleaning And at that point time though disassemble everything for the cleaning.

But the catch to free cleaning is if you have stuff that has worn and you have metal shavings precleaning obliterates all that you may not see destruction.

Then I don't suppose we can have a picture of what yours looks like on the timing machine before you do any of this?

[Nucejoe]

54 minutes ago, SimonKB said:

Sorry just remembered

Is this a supported action by members? sounds good and as mine is erratic to say the least it may be a starting point before starting the disassembling. 

It wont replace clean or preclean but loosens or partially dissolves dried oil, just to free the oscilator, in case you got some lighter fluid  on hairspring just puff air on it to speed up evaporation. if you observe  no difference I start suspecting other possible faults. 

 

[Nucejoe]

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

But the catch to free cleaning is if you have stuff that has worn and you have metal shavings precleaning obliterates all that you may not see destruction.

I never thought of that.

Thank you john,

Regs 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

free cleaning

Dictation software is really nice as I talk words magically appear on the page it sets me free but? Sometimes the word isn't quite right it's supposed to be pre-cleaning.

[SimonKB]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I don't suppose we can have a picture of what yours looks like on the timing machine before you do any of this?

Now more erratic than before.  2nd photo 3 mins later. Observations please

....and thanks for all the interest by the way-gives me a lot more confidence.

I have noticed in some pictures of the 645 that there is a what looks like a spring surrounding the balance regulator arm. Important ? 

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, SimonKB said:

Now more erratic than before.  2nd photo 3 mins later. Observations please

What it tells us is it needs to be serviced. If the amplitude is superlow everything gets magnified especially the beat error. This is why you don't worry about the beat error unless you're at like 200°. The running slow is an issue but we won't know until it's been better cleaned and better running as to whether it's going to be an issue or not.

If you want to have fun now and try an experiment put some lubrication on the escapement. It doesn't really matter what you use 9010 would work don't even have to use 9415 just put some oil on it and see what happens if the amplitude picks up. You can't really oil the escape wheel because there's an end stone.

But just for the fun of it you can see what happens. It's not a substitute for proper cleaning and lubrication though and more than likely a new mainspring if it's never been changed.

 

6 minutes ago, SimonKB said:

I have noticed in some pictures of the 645 that there is a what looks like a spring surrounding the balance regulator arm. Important ? 

I have attached a picture of what you're talking about I assume? In order to have one of these there has to be a hole for the screw and another hole for the pin on the end of the arm to hold it all in place. As there's no way to mount it  you never had one. Strangely enough looking at my 635 I don't have one either. But earlier in the week we had a  I'm assuming so 645 I wasn't working on it and it had the holes but the micro regulator part was not there.

[SimonKB]

OK John. As suggested popped some 9010 on the escapement and not really much change. Took these as a complete picture for you. So what am I probably looking at?

[clockboy]

Almost always with this fault it is the escapement that is at fault.  The behaviour of the hairspring is a good start and it needs to be observed in all positions. Does the hairspring stay flat is there bunching of the hairspring coils in different positions. Then there is end shake and side shake too much can really cause issues on from this is the cap jewels check for damage and cracks. Correct lubrication  of the jewels is also important. 
The bottom line is it can be a very frustrating fault to find but the investigation process is just part of the never ending learning program of horology.

PS I know because I have been there many times.

[Klassiker]

From those readings, desperately in need of a good clean and some fresh oil. Other than that, hard to say, but there is potential (clean traces in some positions). Will watch your progress with interest!

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, clockboy said:

Then there is end shake and side shake too much can really cause issues on from this is the cap jewels check for damage and cracks.

Checking things like end shake is why people servicing Rolex watches use pre-cleaning. As it's considerably easier to check all the clearances with a clean watch. But we don't have a service manual to know what they're supposed to be adjusted to so I wouldn't worry about that

Then oil on the escapement? It made no difference because the entire rest of the watch needs to be cleaned and properly serviced. It was an experiment to see what would happen.

6 hours ago, clockboy said:

The behaviour of the hairspring is a good start and it needs to be observed in all positions.

Thinking about the hairspring what does the spacing of the regulator pins look like?

Then really anything else can't really occur until you get the watch cleaned and lubricated. Even though there is no specifications for early Rolex watches typically when you look at modern Rolex watches at 24 hours they would like to see 200° of amplitude. Because as I pointed out up above when the amplitude goes below 200 everything gets exaggerated Then trying to fix problems when you're having an amplitude problem isn't going to help anything at all probably make things considerably worse.

[SimonKB]

OK thanks everyone for all the feedback. Am going to clear the decks before starting this and wait for a quiet time.....watch this space! Have a good Christmas,

Cheers

Simon