Info on Key Winding Pocket Watch??

[Robbie010 6]

I picked this up from a friend today so I'm trying to gather some info on it before moving forward.

It is a silver cased pocket watch, key winding (I dont have the key), looks like a chester hallmark and the date letter is either a capitol i (I) or a lower case l (L).

Going off the date letter and the cartouche, I think it is dated to 1892?

Can anyone shed any light on the movement or maker?

Also, how do I remove the movement from the case???

Edited March 2 by Robbie010

[oldhippy 2,634]

You will need to remove the bezel. In the photo where the red arrow is pointing is a case screw you need to turn that and the movement will come out from the front. It's an English full plate movement. I can't quite see the makers name on the back plate. If you can tell me what it is I can look him up in my books and give you a better date. 

[Robbie010 6]

25 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You will need to remove the bezel. In the photo where the red arrow is pointing is a case screw you need to turn that and the movement will come out from the front. It's an English full plate movement. I can't quite see the makers name on the back plate. If you can tell me what it is I can look him up in my books and give you a better date. 

Thank you, I’ll take a look. 

The movement is signed J. Shaw & Sons Bolton. 

[Robbie010 6]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

You will need to remove the bezel. In the photo where the red arrow is pointing is a case screw you need to turn that and the movement will come out from the front. It's an English full plate movement. I can't quite see the makers name on the back plate. If you can tell me what it is I can look him up in my books and give you a better date. 

This thing dies not want to come out of the case..... I’ve ended stripping most of the movement down while still in the case to get a better look at how its held in and I’m still uncertain how to safely remove the dian and main plate.

There seems to be some kind of latch and screw where you pointed to.....??

[oldhippy 2,634]

Can you show me the whole case. The name J. Shaw & Sons Bolton aren't recorded in Watch & Clockmakers of the World Vol 1 or 2. I think it was a jewellers shop by that name and they had there name stamped on the movements and dials. The movements would be mass produced. 

[Robbie010 6]

Ok, the mystery deepens.... I managed to get the dial off and found a hinge at 12.00, so its a swing out case. 

[Robbie010 6]

Done it!

There was a tiny metal pin opposite the hinge, just inside the watch bezel. It was quite worn but with a little persuasion I managed to get purchase on it with the pliers and pull it out then the movement swung open. 

[oldhippy 2,634]

Looking at the case it looks as if its a stop watch movement. The part that I have ringed in red looks like the stop for the hack that is in the other photo blue circle. So I suggest unscrewing the screw that has the green circle around it. This case and movement sure is a funny set up. 

[Robbie010 6]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Looking at the case it looks as if its a stop watch movement. The part that I have ringed in red looks like the stop for the hack that is in the other photo blue circle. So I suggest unscrewing the screw that has the green circle around it. This case and movement sure is a funny set up. 

The button you circled in red is just case feature that allows you to get purchase with your nail to open the hinged case back & bezel.

The thing circled in blue appears to be there to simply rub against the underside of balance wheel..... maybe to add some friction???

It’s certainly a strange one.

Next question.... any idea how the setting wheel is removed?

[oldhippy 2,634]

Silly me I had forgotten about this. Where the hing is sometimes that holds the movement in the case so by removing the pin in the hing the movement might be removed. Your other question I will help tomorrow. It's bed time for me. 

[oldhippy 2,634]

Could you show me the whole of the plate both side. My memory is poor these days I retired from watch/clock making in the late 80's due to poor health. Sorry to be a pain.   

[KarlvonKoln 177]

Following this.  I sometimes get to work on key wind/key sets.  And this kind of full-plate version is less well known to me.  You are in good hands with OH.

[Robbie010 6]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Could you show me the whole of the plate both side. My memory is poor these days I retired from watch/clock making in the late 80's due to poor health. Sorry to be a pain.   

 

[Robbie010 6]

This watch is starting to reveal its secrets...

Looking closer at the button on the side of the case, it should actually move side to side (or up & down depending on how you look at it), which, through a basic mechanism moves a strange fork behind the watch face that doesn’t seem to interact with anything. However, at the same time, it also moves the small balance wheel tickler back & forth..... any ideas?

I’m beginning to think this may be a re-purposed watch maybe?

Apologies, I realise I am asking multipe questions here......

[oldhippy 2,634]

This is an English Fusee Pocket watch. The chain is still attached to the fusse, it should unhook.  I must ask this have you ever repaired one of these and do you have any experience with pocket watch or watch repairs. This type can be very complicated to work on.

[Robbie010 6]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

This is an English Fusee Pocket watch. The chain is still attached to the fusse, it should unhook.  I must ask this have you ever repaired one of these and do you have any experience with pocket watch or watch repairs. This type can be very complicated to work on.

Thanks. This will be my first experience with a pocket watch in general so I’m learning as I go. Obviously, my first task to tear it down isn’t going great......

[oldhippy 2,634]

Oh boy this is going to very hard for you. First I want you to take photos of every part you have of that movement the closer the photo of detail the better this must include pivots and teeth of the wheels and the balance. When you have done that let me know. Another thing is the chain complete it should have a hook on each end they should be slightly different. 

[Robbie010 6]

15 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Oh boy this is going to very hard for you. First I want you to take photos of every part you have of that movement the closer the photo of detail the better this must include pivots and teeth of the wheels and the balance. When you have done that let me know. Another thing is the chain complete it should have a hook on each end they should be slightly different. 

Oooh... exciting!

This is where I am at so far.

I have not yet looked at stripping down the main barrel or the fusee wheel. 

The centre second wheel passes through a centre jewel and has a brass collar stopping it from being removed. Should I leave this well alone and clean in-situ or attempt to remove the wheel?

[Repivot 16]

A couple notes. The wire or pin which you said rubs against the balance is for "hacking" or stopping the watch temporarily to make sure the seconds hand is exact. 

Also, by the 1890s all American watches were stem wind. I know this is English, but I'd guess it to be earlier.

[Repivot 16]

I would remove the brass collar from the seconds wheel. It's likely the remnant of a second hand tube, which will need replacing anyway.

[oldhippy 2,634]

You will need to check all the pivots and teeth of the movement as the photo is so far away I can't possibly see the detail. If you don't have the proper tools leave that coller alone. Don't forget to check the balance staff and pallets. 

Yes this is a late fusee movement as the early ones had a verge escapement. 

[canthus 154]

Did one similar some time ago. 

The Pocket Watch by Christopher Barrow is an excellent book covering this type of movement.  Some on the bay at £14ish

Hardest part is trying to get all the pivots in the top plate aligned when assembling. Mine had posts with tapered pins to hold the top plate to the main plate.

Did this twice, taking ages, without mishap. Then decided to strip and take proper pics and, yes, I broke a pivot on the pin lever.  Still not got round to getting it  re-pivoted (not got facilities to do myself).

Edited March 3 by canthus

[oldhippy 2,634]

The hardest part for someone who has never repaired any thing like this will be putting the chain back correctly without twisting it or breaking the thing.  

[Robbie010 6]

I’ve now double cleaned all the parts, except the two barrels. All main parts look in good condition, no missing teeth or major wear. The chain look in good condition and has the hooks on both ends. 

[oldhippy 2,634]

It only has one barrel the other part that is cone shaped is the fusee. You need to clean both of these. You will need to remove the mainspring and make sure it is in good condition and remember which way round it is in the barrel. Have you checked all the wheel holes holes making sure there is no wear, this applies to the barrel and fusee. Also the pallet holes. pluss the pallet stones.  Make sure the jewels for the balance staff are clean and not damaged, pluss the balance staff.  

[Robbie010 6]

The main spring is snapped!

Not sure how to go about finding a replacement, is by length? Any idea how to measure the length of the coil?

The inside diameter of the barrel is 16.9mm, the spring is 2.5mm wide and 0.2mm thick.

Obviously, being a fusee it has no return like modern springs, its just a straight coil with a hole on either end.