Motion causes watch to stop

[Drifter26]

Hi,

I'm repairing an old Banner non-shocked mechanical watch.  I was able to get it running fairly well.  However, after I recased the watch, it stopped.  I'm able to get it started by loosening the balance cock and slightly repositioning the balance wheel.  It will tick away until I start flipping the watch over to get it in the case.  I've demagnetized the watch with no success.  I'm new to the hobby, but my best guess is that the hairspring is shot.  Can someone provide any other possible reasons why a watch stops when physically moved or flipped over?  Thank you!

[Marc]

Broken balance staff pivot would be at the top of my list. 

[Nucejoe]

A host of faults in escapement can cause what you are describing.

As said broken staff or cracked jewel or end stone, hairspring issues, excess side shakes on any arbour in escapement, inadequate end shake, hairspring ,roller table or balance rim rubbing,depthing ...etc.

Save us all a lot of guessing please, routinely remove the balance wheel and end stone to check all under good magnification. 

As you gain experience, you learn a few tests and tricks to find faults, even then nothing beats visual check under high magnification.

Are you sure the oscilator is in beat.

Do you know how to check shakes? 

See if staff pivot stays inside its jewel hole.

Good luck.

 

[Drifter26]

Thank you for your responses.  I removed the balance wheel and inspected the staff pivots.  They appear to be in good shape.  The hairspring also looks good.  I don't see any damage such as kinks, etc.  My strongest magnification at the moment is a 20x loupe, so I might be missing something.  I'm saving up for a microscope and timegrapher.  I will do my best to check the shakes as well.  Thanks again!

[HectorLooi]

Have you removed the cap jewels and cleaned them? Removing and cleaning the jewels is the most daunting task for a newbie. Especially non-shock protected ones. The bottom jewel is relatively easy but the upper jewel can be a real challenge if the capstone screws are on the bottom of the balance cock. There are some good videos on YouTube that show how it's done.

Good luck! 

[Nucejoe]

15 hours ago, Drifter26 said:

Thank you for your responses.  I removed the balance wheel and inspected the staff pivots.  They appear to be in good shape.  The hairspring also looks good.  I don't see any damage such as kinks, etc.  My strongest magnification at the moment is a 20x loupe, so I might be missing something.  I'm saving up for a microscope and timegrapher.  I will do my best to check the shakes as well.  Thanks again!

20X    is strong enough.  will you show picture of hairspring and end stones. there usually are two little screws that hold end stone plate down,  just drop the cock in coca-cola let soak for 20 to 40  hrs, you would need to dress a screwdriver blade for perfect fit in slot of the two little screws 

then lay the cock on a bench, press screw driver balde with a little force into the slot of screws and unscrew em, they opens with incredable ease when soaked in coke.

Check, clean, peg if you can, lube and reinstall end stones, let us see a close up of jewels.

End shake is your free axial play on balance staff, so use an oiler to lift balance wheel, you should see an axial free play, ideally .02mm is good. In case you see no end shake, you can shim up or gauge the cock to create some end shake.

Check if impulse jewel is damaged or loose and it has to be way out of adjustmemt not to continue running.

Keep us posted please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:04 PM, Drifter26 said:

My strongest magnification at the moment is a 20x loupe, so I might be missing something.  I'm saving up for a microscope and timegrapher.  I will do my best to check the shakes as well.  Thanks again!

One of the problems with 20 power and microscopes if you go more for power is the inability to see anything. To understand the watch you need to Be able get a nice field of view of components perhaps inspecting each component with an electron microscope may be perceived to be helpful but isn't really necessary. A timing machine way more necessary. Necessary is also understanding how the watch works how all the components work.

On 1/25/2021 at 9:35 AM, Drifter26 said:

I'm repairing an old Banner non-shocked mechanical watch.  I was able to get it running fairly well.

Background history on the watch what was it doing before you touched it? Then how did you get it running did you entirely disassemble it clean everything put it all back the together lubricate all at my stuff or what what did you do to get it to run?

On 1/25/2021 at 1:04 PM, Drifter26 said:

The hairspring also looks good.

It would be really helpful if you could give us pictures. Hairsprings can still look good especially when looking at them under high power magnification but is it flat. Is it touching the balance arms. Hard to see unless you can look inside ways with in the field of view.

The problem with your symptoms and your description of fixing things is there's too many directions frustum go in. After you got the watch running how fast did you try to case it up? This is because the instant it runs it should run for a little while and it should go on a timing machine time do usually in more than one position. It's not enough that it springs to life and it instantly goes into a case because then the problem was always there it's not casing up the problem. We need some pictures of the watch.

[Drifter26]

Hi!  Thank you again for your responses.  I apologize for the delay.  I actually received a new/old stock balance complete that I tried using.  However, the impulse jewel and stud were misaligned.  After watching Mark's video on the subject, I attempted to realign the hairspring.  Unfortunately, I couldn't remove it from the balance wheel, and now I've noticed the hairspring is slightly tilted to one side.  I tried to capture it  in the attached photos, but it was difficult without a macro lens.  This problem is unrelated to the original problem causing the watch to stop, but I'm hoping I can salvage the new balance to solve the original problem.  I'm very new to the hobby but have already learned that working on the balance is extremely difficult.  Please take a look at the photos and share your opinion if the balance can be saved.  Thank you!

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Drifter26 said:

After watching Mark's video on the subject, I attempted to realign the hairspring.  Unfortunately, I couldn't remove it from the balance wheel,

Unfortunately everyone has different techniques, like for instance you can rotate the collet without removing it from the balance wheel to put the watch in beat. That avoids the complication of screwing up your hairspring.

9 minutes ago, Drifter26 said:

opinion if the balance can be saved. 

Compared to other hairspring as we've seen this can definitely be saved but it does require skill at working with hairsprings. Because if you're not careful in trying to make it flat you'll probably bend it and make it off-center. I'm attaching a picture of how it's supposed to look as you can see it's supposed to be flat and the collet is supposed to be centered.

[Nucejoe]

I think your tweezers are not good enough for the task, I had two pairs of similar looking ones, they were aweful, glad son destroyed them for me.

so if you locate and  try unbending only where its bent( little by little) you would see things improve, make sure you don't attack blindly as it only makes it worse and discouraging.  Its not as much experience as is deciding first what needs to be done to get it back in shape.

Good luck.