E.Morrison fusee pocket watch

[Dano41]

Hi,I am working on this pocket watch and the main spring is broken tried putting the dimensions into the cousins site but no luck.broken.The spring is 350mm long height is 2.2 mm thickness is 0.25 mm.The outside barrel diameter is 15.3 mm and the inner height of the barrel up to the bottom of the cap is 2.5 mm.Any idea where I might get one and how close to the dimensions do I have to be?

[JohnR725]

No pictures of the watch? We don't need it for the question but some of us like the look at watches.

The problem is it was made at a time when modern mainsprings didn't exist. You also didn't mention the end on it?

Usually the most critical dimension for mainspring is the width . I've snipped out some images to get you started with where I'm going with this. First you get the right width They go for the strength but we have a problem. Fortunately modern mainsprings are so much better than the original there are stronger for the same thickness. So you can go thinner for the thickness. But then there's the other problem noticed the  length? This means you're going to have to get a longer spring cut off the end and put a suitable end on the spring.

7835_GR Pages 335 - 344.pdf

[Dano41]

Hi John thank you very much for takingtime to post.I have managed to sourse a replacement from Cousins.

[Dano41]

Hi,I wonder could anyone tell me where I could get an article or video of a step by step oiling of one of these watches?

[JohnR725]

I'm not sure that a step-by-step beginner's lubrication guide or any other guide for lubrication exist for these? I know I've seen some of it in some of the books on watch repair is not sure which ones off the top of my head. I do have a PDF talks a tiny bit about it. Then there's a link to Mark disassembling one I assume somewhere covers lubrication.

https://www.watchrepairlessons.com/2013/01/31/vintage-fusee-pocket-watch/

BHI The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches Version 2008.0.pdf

[Dano41]

Hi thank you for reply I have got the pdf but  I was hoping there would be more specific detail somewhere.

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, Dano41 said:

I was hoping there would be more specific detail somewhere.

Was there something specific that you are concerned about for lubrication?

[Dano41]

Hi,just as an example the main spring I have to put a replacement spring in.Have read that the whole spring should be oiled and others just put oil on top of the spring which is correct?The fusee has to be taken apart for cleaning how is this oiled?

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Dano41 said:

The fusee has to be taken apart for cleaning how is this oiled?

Notice I only extracted a tiny part of your message to quote? The rest of your message is generic watch repair. A fusee is more complicated than a standard watch you really should master standard watch before working on a fusee.

But typically on generic watch repair the mainspring is confusing? This is because if you look at the labels they came prelubricated typically at least if their modern. This either means that the steel use or whatever the made out supposedly requires no lubrication at all. Or they lubricated it with invisible dry lubrication and no it doesn't like to be cleaned. But either way a drop or two of 8200 works and that will wick into the mainspring.

Then yes the fusee has to come apart which can be a interesting process depending on how they Put the pin in and what they made the pin out of. But basically we have a ratchet wheel with a click. The click could be lubricated with a really heavy oil the same as a standard watch. Then you have metal on metal good place for a grease like 9501 would work well here.

 

[JGrainger]

A fusee isn't the easiest of watches to start with.. techniques for disassembly and reassembly vary a little by personal preference and the individual quirks of the watch to hand - under the dial there is usually a little removable piece which allows you to remove part of the gear train.  It may also be possible to wind down a fusee with a watch key under the dial. On some movements the lever and escape wheel are separate to the rest of the train, others not so.

Servicing the fusee cone may be a matter of a simple cleaning and re-lubricating, or may require new parts to be obtained/ modified/ made.

Usually there's a taper pin on the bottom (opposite to the winding end with the snail-shaped piece). A metal collar can then be removed and the rest of the layers will also separate. There are some variations in the details of the parts of the fusee cone.

[JohnR725]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:12 AM, Dano41 said:

The fusee has to be taken apart for cleaning how is this oiled?

I was looking at several of my books out of curiosity and they really don't cover lubrication because they assume that you already know how to lubricate. For instance in Gazeley's book titled watch and clock making and repair which covers all sorts of details of making all sorts of stuff the only hint of lubrication is on the fusee chain. Which goes like this fusee chains are boiled in a pot of oil. It doesn't actually say which oil it is. Allowed the cool then dipped in benzene. Which by the way gets spelled two different ways the way my dictation software did it and I'll have to hand typed the other one benzine. Personally I wouldn't use either one they're bad for your health one of them will kill you eventually. Then he go to the next one you need a spirit lamp basically an open flame and you quickly move the chain over that held between two tweezers because you're supposed to burning off the hairs that somehow got caught up in the links. Don't blame me if you'd chain turns blue because you got it too hot. But does not say which oil to use the problem is most books are written for doing modern watch repair there really aren't any detailed books on restoration of vintage watches step-by-step and how to lubricate them except?

There's another place that you can find lubrication. Where else did they use fusee's? Hamilton has a manual for their ships chronometer. It's not a watch detent clock with a fusee. I've snipped out the relevant sections on lubrication and assembly. It does not and probably will not exactly resemble yours because there's lots of or some variations.

 

[jdm]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I Allowed the cool then dipped in benzene. Which by the way gets spelled two different ways the way my dictation software did it and I'll have to hand typed the other one benzine. Personally I wouldn't use either one they're bad for your health one of them will kill you eventually. 

Again this confusion. Benzine is basically motor fuel minus any additive. It is not particularly dangerous for health, as 120 years of massive usage have demonstrated. Otherwise any gas stations attendant or lawn mower owner would have gone sick now 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, jdm said:

Again this confusion. Benzine is basically motor fuel minus any additive. It is not particularly dangerous for health, as 120 years of massive usage have demonstrated. Otherwise any gas stations attendant or lawn mower owner would have gone sick now 

My bad I am feeling really stupid here thank you for pointing out my stupidity and now everyone please go breathe some benzene and as it's totally harmless or is it?.

Okay I'm feeling really confused I was talking about benzene and your link is talking about Something called Petroleum ether. Then it has an interesting quote right at the very top "Benzine" redirects here. It is not to be confused with Benzene."  In the quote as you can see the last word is a link but I'm the post the link here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene

Now I wouldn't get so bent out of shape and take this personal but it did kill my father. His exposure came from running windtunnel tests it is used to use it to clean the windtunnel out and just like you say it was harmless. At least for 30 years Then my father died from myelofibrosis. I found you some additional links notice one of the even a gas station attendant looks like that pesky benzene may be really isn't harmless after all.

https://academic.oup.com/occmed/article-abstract/45/1/51/1354097?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myelofibrosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20355057

http://www.toxictorts.com/benzene-myelofibrosis-and
-myeloid-metaplasia/

[Graziano]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

My bad I am feeling really stupid here thank you for pointing out my stupidity and now everyone please go breathe some benzene and as it's totally harmless or is it?.

Okay I'm feeling really confused I was talking about benzene and your link is talking about Something called Petroleum ether. Then it has an interesting quote right at the very top "Benzine" redirects here. It is not to be confused with Benzene."  In the quote as you can see the last word is a link but I'm the post the link here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene

Now I wouldn't get so bent out of shape and take this personal but it did kill my father. His exposure came from running windtunnel tests it is used to use it to clean the windtunnel out and just like you say it was harmless. At least for 30 years Then my father died from myelofibrosis. I found you some additional links notice one of the even a gas station attendant looks like that pesky benzene may be really isn't harmless after all.

https://academic.oup.com/occmed/article-abstract/45/1/51/1354097?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myelofibrosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20355057

http://www.toxictorts.com/benzene-myelofibrosis-and
-myeloid-metaplasia/

Thanks for sharing that information John,  your knowledge on the subject of benzene should be taken seriously. May your dad rest in peace 

Graziano 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Graziano

[jdm]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 In the quote as you can see the last word is a link but I'm the post the link here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene

Now I wouldn't get so bent out of shape and take this personal but it did kill my father.

I'm very saddened to learn that that. Clearly benzene is a terrible carcinogenetic, and I was not talking about that. Since you wrote either one they're bad for your health then I felt it was appropriate to explain the difference, which is huge. Sorry if that has reawaken your grief.

Going back to the subject of lubricating a fusee chain, petroleum ether (benzine) would be IMHO the best solvent for a 2% solution of medium oil into which dip the part, as you explained above.

[Dano41]

Hi,thank you very much for replies and JohnR7  for taking the time to post the Hamilton Ship Cronometer.

[JohnR725]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:35 AM, Dano41 said:

Hi,I wonder could anyone tell me where I could get an article or video of a step by step oiling of one of these watches?

Back to one Of your questions which I've quoted. Here's the problem there is no step-by-step guide. Because basically it's a watch lubricated as you would a pocket watch. Oh wait there really isn't any guides and lubricating pocket watches everything is aimed at modern wristwatches.

Then even the question about servicing a fusee watches a problem in that. Fusee is an aspect of the watch. Kinda like saying how do I service a watch with a mainspring barrel. Fusee's can be found in a whole variety of watches with a variety of escapement's. Which is part of the reason when you look at some of these books that the servicing a fusee watches usually scattered through the whole book because the book is on watch repair.

In the book practical watch repairing by Donald DE Carle there is an entire chapter on the English lever. Looking through that chapter I'm not sure I would recommend some of the things he's doing. In fact I definitely wouldn't do it a few of the things he's recommending. But there's still a lot of good material there. but he does have an entire chapter on the English three-quarter plate fusee watch. With some good stuff and some undesirable stuff. I've extracted out a page it covers the chain.