Hamilton Khaki Laser Regulation. Really? Anyone been inside one?

[NewToWatches]

I read a recent watch review of the automatic Hamilton Khaki Field watch.  I have one of these, and one of their hand-wound models.  I really like the display and the size -- I have medium sized wrists and hands and the current trend to larger watch faces doesn't do much for me (although I get that they are popular and they work for many folks). Also, both watches have been exceptionally accurate over the time of my ownership.  The Timegrapher shows them both to be very, very good for mechanical watches.  I think the older of the two has the prior version of the ETA 2824 -- not the current 80-hr. power reserve model.   Anyway, the review was here;  https://www.watchspec.com/hamilton-khaki-field-automatic/ and in it the reviewer states,  "[n]ow a complaint – this movement cannot be regulated except by Hamilton. The construction of the movement is such that lasers are required to perform the regulation and therefore the watch must be sent in to Hamilton to perform the regulation themselves. . ."  

So, a couple of questions:  Is this true?  Any sense of when this was introduced in Hamilton? And if true, have any of you "called Hamilton's bluff" and gone inside the moment yourselves?  Any insights? The older of my two Hamiltons is now about 15 years ago and it has recently occurred to me that some regular preventative servicing is in order. 

I am a ways away from going into these myself -- I haven't even begun to ruin my quota of practice movements.  But info on this subject will eventually be pertinent.  So: curious minds, and all that.  Intelligence from the field, slings, arrows, downright mockery all welcome.

 

Ben

Edited December 12, 2020 by NewToWatches
that dang grammar

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, NewToWatches said:

"[n]ow a complaint – this movement cannot be regulated except by Hamilton. The construction of the movement is such that lasers are required to perform the regulation and therefore the watch must be sent in to Hamilton to perform the regulation themselves. . ."  

There is a minor problem with the article which is probably part of the confusion perhaps maybe? So the problem is what movement are we talking about? For instance quoting from the article we have this "H-10. This movement is Swiss made and is a modification of the ETA caliber C07.111, which itself is based on the well-known ETA 2824-2"  To give you an idea about the C07.111 Movement I have a link to an article.

Then I was looking at a different source which indicated the movement in the Hamilton is the Movement H-10, C07.611 Which is a little bit different than the C07.111 That can be found in the second link it looks like the escapement is different.

Then to understanding the regulation aspect the fourth flank and I swiped a picture off the website which I'm attaching. It's one of their newer balance wheels which has timing weights on the arms. Ideally you're supposed to use a special tool to avoid breaking things. So of its using this balance wheel it can be regulated but probably most normal watchmakers would be confused and there's some minor setting changes the timing machine soever regulates it has to have a modern timing machine. But it's always possible that they did some other modification beyond this that may be does require a laser like if instead of having screws you had permanent weights that were lasered to remove the weights but I doubt that. They probably just don't want watch people inside of their movement.

 

 

https://monochrome-watches.com/swatch-groups-powermatic-movement-a-powerful-entry-level-engine/

https://watchbase.com/eta/caliber/c07-611

https://watchbase.com/eta/caliber/c07-111

https://perpetual.tistory.com/30

[NewToWatches]

Got it.  So, among other refinements, the H-10, C07.611 has its balance wheel regulated by setting those weights on the balance wheel arms, while the ETA 2824-2 allows regulation with a small screw and the "+/-" with which I am familiar from my Seikos. You can see from the helpful picture you posed that it would be more of a pain to adjust the wheel weights on a Hamilton, with a greater chance of damaging the hair spring if you were ham-handed with your tools.  Not exactly the same as a "No Trespassing" sign on the movement, but maybe, as you say, a disincentive to the faint-hearted.

Many thanks, John, for the crystal clear explanation.

[JohnR725]

I was going to find you a you tube video and got distracted with the first link. Even though he showing how to do it I would consider this more of a amusing video then practical guide. Also the movement that he has is still based on the base caliber of the one in our discussion but it's a slightly different version even though it has the similar or same balance wheel. Then for his watch he has the lift angle wrong

Some of the problems for regulation is if it's the movement with the synthetic escapement escapement itself is really quiet. This requires minor changes to the timing machine. Basically it means they gain is pushed up considerably and you have to be timing in a very quiet room. And usually what they do is they have longer measuring times even the little Chinese machine you can change the measuring time most people don't. Then the other thing they do is they usually average several positions as opposed to typically hobbyists time in one position only.

Then they go add to the confusion hopefully I'll find a video was looking for which was somebody disassembling the movement that you have then later they reassemble it so you can see what's inside. So if you look on YouTube for the movement numbers will see the references to Powermatic 80. Then when you look up articles on that movement which I think a put a link the second link. So in this flank you see that the actual movement caliber number is this Powermatic 80, Powermatic 80.111, PM80. But then they make a reference that it is Base caliber ETA C07.111 (based on the ETA 2824-2). The reason I'm being so nitpicky is the movement in question really is referred to as 80.111 Which has a lift angle of 47°. The ETA C07.611 Is listed as 50° true and being really nitpicky here. So they're similar but not exactly the same. Then they keep referring back to the base base caliber and as you can see there's variations.

Third link and there's actually quite a few of these if you look on YouTube or a few people showing how to disassemble M are talking about them. So yes they do look like the base caliber but there are variations in differences. Especially if you go to the synthetic escapement as I said timing machine requirements changes and that also requires special lubrication. Plus ideally you should have a special tool for the regulation so as not to damage the balance wheel. But as you can see in the video above you can regulate your watch if you're careful. The only thing I'm curious about is the reference to the laser regulation? Because I can see in a factory setting removing the screwdriver slots and using a fiber laser or some other laser to actually burn the weight off then you would have to send it back to the factory but we don't actually know this I'm only speculating. Otherwise they might just be saying that the scare you away.

https://youtu.be/iZQU_0QCdJ8

https://calibercorner.com/tissot-caliber-powermatic-80/

https://youtu.be/cV2NIuJVyIo

[jdm]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So in this flank you see that the actual movement caliber number is this Powermatic 80, Powermatic 80.111, PM80. But then they make a reference that it is Base caliber ETA C07.111 (based on the ETA 2824-2). The reason I'm being so nitpicky is the movement in question really is referred to as 80.111 Which has a lift angle of 47°. The ETA C07.611 Is listed as 50° true and being really nitpicky here. So they're similar but not exactly the same. Then they keep referring back to the base base caliber and as you can see there's variations.

What I suspect the plot is here is simply the largest mov.t manufacturer helping two makers of the same ownership in getting a bit ahead in their market segment with automatic watches sporting a longer power reserve, good timekeeping, and possibly a reduced need for servicing,  While of course keeping independent repairers out of the loop not providing even the usual basic technical information. Not exactly enticing for either the horological enthusiasts or the professional.

[Dryfly]

I despise these powermatic movements. I have a Tissot COSC certified watch with the powermatic 80 movement. I bought it new a couple years back. It is off by 45-60 seconds per day and has been since the day I bought it, I have regulated many movements, nothing can reasonably be done to this one without the factory laser. Several watch makers have refused to touch it at all. I contacted them about sending it back...they (Tissot) told me to expect it to take a year or more to get it back to me. Not interested in that at all.

Thus in my opinion it is a $1200 piece of junk that you can now buy new for about half of what I paid, wonder why? Never have and never will wear it, and will likely use it for .22 target practice at some point, one expensive target. For comparison I have several $150- $300 Orient watches, each and every one is far more accurate, the worst of the bunch is about 12 seconda per day off. The best couple are within COSC specs. (I did do a bit of very simple regulation on several of them)

The only nicer watches that I now purchase are Grand Seikos. My cheaper, but still very good, watches are Orient Star watches as well as a few even cheaper plain old Orient watches. They are among the only watch brands that I have never had any issues with and I have a decent amount of them, about 2 dozen or so Orient Stars and 4 Grand Seikos, as well as 6 regular Orient watches. My Grand Seikos are all within +2 seconds per day. I also have a $2050 Longines Record watch (similar movement) that is and always has been close to 60 seconds per day off...trash. Spendy trash. Getting it fixed or replaced is the same as with the Tissot, terrible and utterly ridiculous, as well as being unregulatable for any average person.

I have also had great luck with a pair of Frederique Constant watches with Sellita movements, both are very accurate and well within COSC specs. One of them is the closest thing I have to being perfect, when I wear it regularly it gains no more than 3-4 seconds per week, provided that I place it face down at night and that I wear it daily. I wouldn't advise anyone to spend any money at all on a powermatic or similar movement.

Final comment of my rant. I own 1 Rolex watch, an Oyster Perpetual, it is not close to being as consistent or as accurate as any of my Grand Seikos. The Grand Seikos also have a far higher level of craftsmanship and finishing than my Rolex. Not even comparable really, the Rolex has only one advantage, it's brand name prestige. The craftsmanship, accuracy, and time keeping consistency is not even close.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Dryfly said:

nothing can reasonably be done to this one without the factory laser

no pictures of your movement? I was under the impression that these could be regulated what makes you think it Be regulated? Oh and if it was off by that much timekeeping from when you purchased it don't they have any sort of warranty shouldn't she have been able to take it back?

[Geotex]

This is only my armchair understanding from reading various accounts, but I believe that the laser is a tool for fast and accurate analysis, not adjustment. However, making micro-adjustments to those tiny eccentrics directly mounted to the balance without special tooling is a problem. Accurately tweaking a single screw without damaging the works would be challenging but not impossible, but in this case you need to make matching adjustments on the other side to adjust timing while maintaining the poise. Go a bit too far or not far enough with one or the other and then try to figure out what adjustments you need to find your way back... I'll pass on that!

[Dryfly]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:45 AM, JohnR725 said:

no pictures of your movement? I was under the impression that these could be regulated what makes you think it Be regulated? Oh and if it was off by that much timekeeping from when you purchased it don't they have any sort of warranty shouldn't she have been able to take it back?

Yes they should have taken it back, that is half of my point, Tissots warranty is worthless. What I stated was the only thing they were willing to do (i.e. send it back to Tissot...for "about a year") I have regulated many watches over many years and have built a couple of watches myself, I can do nothing with this garbage. I didn't know I was required to post pics when I state facts about my interaction with them.

 

17 hours ago, Geotex said:

This is only my armchair understanding from reading various accounts, but I believe that the laser is a tool for fast and accurate analysis, not adjustment. However, making micro-adjustments to those tiny eccentrics directly mounted to the balance without special tooling is a problem. Accurately tweaking a single screw without damaging the works would be challenging but not impossible, but in this case you need to make matching adjustments on the other side to adjust timing while maintaining the poise. Go a bit too far or not far enough with one or the other and then try to figure out what adjustments you need to find your way back... I'll pass on that!

Bingo!

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Geotex said:

This is only my armchair understanding from reading various accounts,

the problem with armchair reading is Swatch group doesn't share any information of those outside of the group. This leads to lots of speculation.

8 hours ago, Geotex said:

However, making micro-adjustments to those tiny eccentrics directly mounted to the balance without special tooling is a problem. Accurately tweaking a single screw without damaging the works would be challenging but not impossible, but in this case you need to make matching adjustments on the other side to adjust timing while maintaining the poise. Go a bit too far or not far enough with one or the other and then try to figure out what adjustments you need to find your way back... I'll pass on that!

if we look at the last little bit of what I quoted above you will pass and that is one of the most important lessons to learn in watch repair if you don't feel good about something pass on it. often times we see newbies jumping in and working on things they shouldn't and that doesn't always end well

basically for the rest of the quote  that could apply to any watch with timing screws and/or timing  weights. Like for instance Rolex  doesn't have a regulator typically you have to adjust the timing weights  and can individuals do it sure they can. They just need a timing machine and the special tool for the shape of the  weights on the balance rim.. What about American pocket watches for instance they come with timing screws and based on the timing I see a lot of people play with those the balance wheels are out of poise he just put them back in poise so can  things like this be done by us yes but you do have to know what you're doing.. Of course other question is can you regulate this watch with those timing weights?

22 hours ago, Dryfly said:

powermatic movements. I have a Tissot COSC certified watch with the powermatic 80 movement

on discussion groups like this we always like to have model numbers makes it easier to look up things  so  I'm guessing we have this watch Tissot Powermatic 80.111   CT C07.111 . then the particular watch in this discussion has a COSC certification. with the timekeeping of

22 hours ago, Dryfly said:

It is off by 45-60 seconds per day and has been since the day I bought it

the problem with this is the timekeeping is outside of even the normal non-chronometer specification for this movement

22 hours ago, Dryfly said:

I have regulated many movements, nothing can reasonably be done to this one without the factory laser. Several watch makers have refused to touch it at all. I contacted them about sending it back...they (Tissot) told me to expect it to take a year or more to get it back to me. Not interested in that at all.

I would be really curious if somebody could give me the exact place where it says you have to have a factory laser to regulate this.

the reason why normal watchmakers will touch this is it's a Swatch group watch. Why work on a watch that you would have no spare parts know the technical literature no help word know would appear a lot why work on something that just isn't what you should be working on. It's the problem buying watch movements that come from companies do not supply any technical information at all unless you have access to Swatch group documentation.

Now back to regulation non-chronometer version because it's basically exactly the same except if you really wanted a brand-new chronometer certificate they would have to be sent away and there's a whole procedure for that. So let's look at what about the non-chronometer grade can it be regulated at all not based on this discussion but what about what to Swatch group really have to say about this

oh and I didn't say information was never available I just said you would have to have access to Swatch group or know somebody who is access to Swatch group then information can be available. But normally wherever you have access to Swatch group nobody's going to give you a clue as to how the heck they do that as you would never want to risk your source. But maybe we can find something if we are really resourceful

not finding the exact PDF I want but let's go with this one it has lots of interesting information. Notice the parts most of the parts are generic to a specific watch in other words are available but notice the parts that are not available that is why no one in their right mind is working on watches should undertake doing one of these unless you have access this watch parts otherwise you have an unhappy customer.

oh look up above level of accuracy except in the case of the watch in his discussion at least one of them and new adjustment for the balance hairspring system is some sort of laser Star Wars weapon.

Oh and note that this technical document is slightly out-of-date because I think they will probably take some of the other newer witschi timing machines that are out there now but you'll notice I'm not seeing the lasers where are they. Also the reference to the chronometer certified basically they have to go back to the factory because it would have to go out for certification.

then notice the timing a specification and the watch that's not keeping time these are not the chronometer specifications these of the normal specifications and the watch that's not keeping time is not even within the specifications in other words a defective watch for timekeeping purposes

oh look a special tool that doesn't seem to have a laser

oh and notice up above the escapement maintenance? This is why people in the field when they look at the synthetic escapement well you would be wise not to work on it and you do require special lubrication which is available out in the market at least the last time I looked

then we get the other amusement yes there is a tool but is everyone as Swatch group using the fancy tool to hold the screwdriver? What about Rodo. Basically they're just supporting the balance zero distort anything and you're using an ordinary screwdrivers far as I can tell because it is no reference to the other special tool

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by JohnR725

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Dryfly said:

I didn't know I was required to post pics when I state facts about my interaction with them.

you're not required to do anything on this group. I personally just like to see pictures of whatever it is were talking about. Then if it's a repair question which you did not have posting details numbers etc. helps for people answering. But you would have to do any of those things

it is sad though that you spend the money on a watch that is obviously defective and you have to wait a whole year and hope they fix it right. Then you get some interesting problems with the Swatch group service center. Although these can't go to the service center because there are other certified which means that you back to Switzerland's. I used to know somebody that worked in the service center and even though there is published specifications at least for the non-chronometer. Another is specifications where the watch should keep time between this and this and you should aim for this middle rate. In the service center they just have to hit the window they don't even have to hit the target number which is well I think that's strange.

I do find is strange from seeing the publications a Swatch group versus what I've heard the service center does it's very strange. On the other hand the service center is trying to service lots and lots and lots of watches and trying to perfect is an issue. Oh and don't worry they don't try to be perfect apparently they have to have a certain percentage of comebacks because of their to perfect then it's considered their wasting too much time being perfect isn't that well strange logic?