Removal of Breguet non-shock balance end stone

[AdamC]

Hello,

I am attempting to service an old H. Williamson pocket watch movement and hit an obstacle before I even started. I know I'll need to disassemble the balance in order to oil the non-shock end stone but having watched one of Mark's newer videos advising on the danger of removing the end stone mounting screws while the balance cock is mounted, I'm wary of doing this. However, with the Breguet hairspring held to the cock with with its own screw-retained "carrier cock" (holding the pinned hairspring) instead of a stud carrier, also top-mounted, I don't know what's riskier? As you can see, this old 1918 movement is a work of art in itself and I'd hate to mess it up. My concern is also how I'd manage to reassemble the hairspring to the balance cock safely after servicing.

Do any of you know the safest "best practice" for disassembling and re-assembling such a balance please?

Thanks,
Adam

[jdrichard]

2 minutes ago, AdamC said:

Hello,

I am attempting to service an old H. Williamson pocket watch movement and hit an obstacle before I even started. I know I'll need to disassemble the balance in order to oil the non-shock end stone but having watched one of Mark's newer videos advising on the danger of removing the end stone mounting screws while the balance cock is mounted, I'm wary of doing this. However, with the Breguet hairspring held to the cock with with its own screw-retained "carrier cock" (holding the pinned hairspring) instead of a stud carrier, also top-mounted, I don't know what's riskier? As you can see, this old 1918 movement is a work of art in itself and I'd hate to mess it up. My concern is also how I'd manage to reassemble the hairspring to the balance cock safely after servicing.

Do any of you know the safest "best practice" for disassembling and re-assembling such a balance please?

Thanks,
Adam

I would just grab the complete balance cock and lift it out while tilting the movement to allow the balance to come out. The put the whole lot on a balance tack and loosen the screws. Then take the balance off the tack and support the balance on a metal block with holes to support the balance. Lower the balance cock / bridge for Americans:) so the hairspring has little tension and take the stud out. Now you have the balance bridge on its own to work in the upper cap jewel.

my guess:)

[jdrichard]

16 minutes ago, AdamC said:

Hello,

I am attempting to service an old H. Williamson pocket watch movement and hit an obstacle before I even started. I know I'll need to disassemble the balance in order to oil the non-shock end stone but having watched one of Mark's newer videos advising on the danger of removing the end stone mounting screws while the balance cock is mounted, I'm wary of doing this. However, with the Breguet hairspring held to the cock with with its own screw-retained "carrier cock" (holding the pinned hairspring) instead of a stud carrier, also top-mounted, I don't know what's riskier? As you can see, this old 1918 movement is a work of art in itself and I'd hate to mess it up. My concern is also how I'd manage to reassemble the hairspring to the balance cock safely after servicing.

Do any of you know the safest "best practice" for disassembling and re-assembling such a balance please?

Thanks,
Adam

Like this

[AdamC]

Seems a sensible approach jdrichard. Thanks, I'll probably give that a go tomorrow evening.

[Nucejoe]

No doubt removing the two little screws is the prefered approach and less risky with balance detached from the cock, since you would have more control an can push down on the screw as hard as needed, if placed on hard surface.

I can't see how stud is to be safely detached from this particular cock !!   with regular screw stud type, it is safer, if you loosen the stud screw when the cock and balance are still mounted on mainplate.

I usually put some penetrating oil on both little screws and attepmt the unscrew next day. 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

On a watch like that I will unscrew the stud with the balance and cock in the watch, then gently slide the stud off the cock. Unscrew cock and lift off, remove balance from movement. With the cock off set it on a bench block so you don't bend the pins while loosening the screws for the cap jewel. Then, on these American pieces, the hole jewel and cap jewel will normally press out (they are both mounted in an individual setting). They made star-like "jewel pushers" with different sized brass tips, but you can press them out with pegwood normally. If they are stubborn then best to use a jeweling tool (first choice), or a staking tool (second choice, be gentle).

[AdamC]

Nickelsilver, this sounds like a good approach too. Definitely a more tricky one to handle. By the way, this is not an American movement, it was made in Coventry, England. I’m not 100% sure but I think Smiths may have acquired H. Williamson a long time ago.

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I can't see how stud is to be safely detached from this particular cock !!   with regular screw stud type, it is safer, if you loosen the stud screw when the cock and balance are still mounted on mainplate.

 

I see the stud screw now, so I just loosen it, unless the stud slides outward easy, DO NOT DIRECTLY PUSH ON THE STUD  AS YOU WOULD BE PUSHING ON BALANCE PIVOTS TOO, I use a pair of tweezers, hold the tweezers at 45 degree one arm push on the stud, another under stud holder. You just want to break the stud loose off of its hole, it can then be easily pushed out when the cock is removed, hold your hand about a cm above bench and drop the balance on tissue paper, cloth for low altitude soft landing. 

 

[nickelsilver]

19 minutes ago, AdamC said:

Nickelsilver, this sounds like a good approach too. Definitely a more tricky one to handle. By the way, this is not an American movement, it was made in Coventry, England. I’m not 100% sure but I think Smiths may have acquired H. Williamson a long time ago.

Ah- in that case the cap jewel may well just lift out once the screws are removed.

 

Joe- the stud is just sitting on the cock, held by the screw. With the screw out it will just shift over off the cock, no danger. Similar studs were used on many high end pieces, particularly marine chronometers.

Edited December 1, 2020 by nickelsilver

[AdamC]

22 hours ago, jdrichard said:

I would just grab the complete balance cock and lift it out while tilting the movement to allow the balance to come out. The put the whole lot on a balance tack and loosen the screws. Then take the balance off the tack and support the balance on a metal block with holes to support the balance. Lower the balance cock / bridge for Americans:) so the hairspring has little tension and take the stud out. Now you have the balance bridge on its own to work in the upper cap jewel.

my guess:)

This has worked well jdrichard using a slightly modified method. Once on the balance tack, I was able to loosen the hairspring carrier, move it aside, and then disengage the spring between the regulator pins. It then dropped down onto a soft landing below. Note, I used Rodico to prop and cushion the cock on the block to protect the regulator pins. But now to remove the jewel... Under high magnification, I can see the flange around the jewel but it won't shift. Tried ultrasonic clean in Renata Essence, and afterwards even using a very fine 0.50 bladed screwdriver it won't provide enough lever to shift it. I've tried coaxing with pegwood too but not even a wobble. Both upper and lower jewels are friction fitted hard into the cock plate so rather than persisting risking potential damage, I think I'd better stop now! I can see after the ultrasonic clean that the jewel looks clean now and I'm thinking of oiling through the jewel hole from the underside with my very fine incabloc oiler. Not ideal but the alternative could end in disaster!

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, AdamC said:

This has worked well jdrichard using a slightly modified method. Once on the balance tack, I was able to loosen the hairspring carrier, move it aside, and then disengage the spring between the regulator pins. It then dropped down onto a soft landing below. Note, I used Rodico to prop and cushion the cock on the block to protect the regulator pins. But now to remove the jewel... Under high magnification, I can see the flange around the jewel but it won't shift. Tried ultrasonic clean in Renata Essence, and afterwards even using a very fine 0.50 bladed screwdriver it won't provide enough lever to shift it. I've tried coaxing with pegwood too but not even a wobble. Both upper and lower jewels are friction fitted hard into the cock plate so rather than persisting risking potential damage, I think I'd better stop now! I can see after the ultrasonic clean that the jewel looks clean now and I'm thinking of oiling through the jewel hole from the underside with my very fine incabloc oiler. Not ideal but the alternative could end in disaster!

You should be able to push the jewel and it’s cap out by pushing from the lower side of the jewel with a flattened piece of peg wood. You need to align the jewel with a hole on your metal block and simply push down with the balance cock laying upside down on the metal block. I have actually used a stake in the past. Need to make sure that the peg wood stick or the stake pushes on the jewel setting and not the jewel. Also check that he fine edge that holds the jewel in is below the jewel and you can in fade push it out.

[AdamC]

5 hours ago, jdrichard said:

You should be able to push the jewel and it’s cap out by pushing from the lower side of the jewel with a flattened piece of peg wood. You need to align the jewel with a hole on your metal block and simply push down with the balance cock laying upside down on the metal block. Need to make sure that the peg wood stick or the stake pushes on the jewel setting and not the jewel. Also check that he fine edge that holds the jewel in is below the jewel and you can in fact push it out.

Thank you, your technique has worked. After shaping the peg wood to the right diameter to avoid pressure on the jewel, with two firm pushes, the jewels dropped through the hole in the block. I could see then that they required cleaning for sure! After further cleaning before oiling and reassembly, would you recommend pushing them back in with peg wood or using a jeweling set? Sorry, this is quite advanced and new to me. I’m aware that they’ll need to be at the correct height/tolerance but I’d. imagine pushing fully home afterwards should be satisfactory (as long as I know they’re fully home).

[jdrichard]

4 hours ago, AdamC said:

Thank you, your technique has worked. After shaping the peg wood to the right diameter to avoid pressure on the jewel, with two firm pushes, the jewels dropped through the hole in the block. I could see then that they required cleaning for sure! After further cleaning before oiling and reassembly, would you recommend pushing them back in with peg wood or using a jeweling set? Sorry, this is quite advanced and new to me. I’m aware that they’ll need to be at the correct height/tolerance but I’d. imagine pushing fully home afterwards should be satisfactory (as long as I know they’re fully home).

I usually push the jewel in with peg wood , until it hits the lip and make sure it is level. Then I install the cap and at times I use a hollow stake or Jeweling set. The reason for not using the peg wood for the cap is that it is domed and you could damage that jewel in the setting. I have however done both with peg wood, if the cap jewel setting is fairly loose in the hole and can easily be pushed in. Befor you remove it, make or note a small witness mark si you can put it back into the exact same place.