Opening a Poljot de Luxe 23 jewel case (2209 movement)

[LeeReynolds]

I've got a Poljot de Luxe that I'm trying to work on.  I can remove the case back and see the movement, but this looks to be a front loader.  

There appears to be a thin bezel holding the acrylic crystal in place, but no place to insert a case knife or other tool.  I don't want to damage the case fighting with it.

Here are some stock images, including one with the bezel/crystal removed.  My watch appears to be identical to these.

Does anyone have experience working on these cases?

 

[watchweasol]

With the bezel removed you will need a glass lifter like the one attached . Then remove the movement screws and locks, the movement should lift out through the front.  tech sheet attached.

Poljot 2209.pdfFetching info...

[LeeReynolds]

Thank you very much for the data sheet on this movement!  I've been trying to find something like this.

Would I use the glass lifter on the watch itself, without removing the bezel?

Because the bezel is the piece that is concerning me.  I don't see a safe way to unsnap it from the case.

If I can remove the crystal directly using the glass lifter, then all is good.

 

Incidentally, do you know what the correct amplitude range would be for this movement?  I've built one from 10 scrap movements of different vintages, and I'm getting over 300 degrees when the movement is fully wound.  (I've got my timegrapher set to 49 degrees).  I'm thinking that the mainspring may have changed over the production run.  Since my movement is built from movements of different vintages, I'm thinking the mainspring I picked may be too strong. 

 

[AndyHull]

Very nice.

I have a Sekonda which is somewhat  similar but not nearly so well preserved. In my case, the bezel and crystal pop off in one piece. It splits about the line I have indicated.

Before you try this though examine very carefully with good magnification. You may find a small indent/recess to insert the blade at.

If this is indeed the way it is constructed use a very thin blade, like a safety razor to push into the gap and separate the two parts. You may need to push a second one in beside the first to get enough of a gap to insert your case knife and you should then be able to pop the thing off

If there is no recess to inset your case knife, then Insert your first thin blade in the line between the lugs where any accidental damage will be less obvious, but proceed very carefully so you don't do any damage in the first place.

Once the bezel and crystal are off, undo the two screws holding the clamps that hold the mechanism in and it should pop out of the front.

If you don't remove the bezel, but just the crystal, then the dial may be trapped behind the inside curve of the bezel and this may prevent the movement from coming out.

Edited October 8, 2020 by AndyHull

[watchweasol]

According to research the movement is more likley to be a Lurch 2209  Lift angle  49Deg.   I would let it settle down as its been though major surgery and check again, doesnt look too excessive

WatchGuy Lift Angles.htmlFetching info...

[JohnC]

On my Luch 2209 there is a small slot to pop off the bezel and crystal together as one unit, directly opposite the crown. I used a small screwdriver. I am pretty sure the bezel and crystal should come off as one piece - I would not attempt to separate them! 

[JohnC]

By the way, just a word of caution on these 2209 dials. I have always been suspicious of the ones that have the double-marker at the 12 instead of the triple. This link is suggestive but maybe not conclusive. All of which isn't to say that it is not still a good watch - just depends on your preference I think.

https://www.2209watchmovement.com/brand-specifics/luch

 

[AndyHull]

The design and dial looks very similar to this one from the 1966 catalogue.  The hands and case colour are obviously different though.

Edited October 9, 2020 by AndyHull

[AndyHull]

The results of OCR and translate on the 1971 pdf description of the 2409...
 

"FLIGHT" 2409
MEN'S WRIST WATCH WITH CENTRAL SECOND ARROW AND ANTI-IMPACT DEVICE.
Movement caliber 24 mm for 17 ruby stones.
The shockproof device reliably protects protects the balance axis from damage during service tea strokes.
Siscial alloy hair.
The winding spring is made of stainless steel.
The oscillation period T is 0.4 sec.
Average daily variation in absolute value rank 45 sec.
The duration of a stroke from one full spring winding for at least 36 hours.
Stainless steel enclosures, chromium-plated bathrooms and gilded - 20 microns.
Dials.
Silver, gilded and with black pickel.
Figures and signs are embossed, milled.
Black scales, gilded hands and nick2- lyrovannys.

Your guess is as good as mine as to what "lyrovannys" are.

The 2609 translation is a little less clear

teahouses at the Dafs, _ | ye
non - yen screwless.
Special alloy hair.
`` The winding spring is made of special stainless
° drifting alloy $ -shaped.
Oscillation period T =: 0.4 sec.
Average daily rate. by absolute value
`rank 30 sec.
o The duration of a stroke from one full
`- ca 'chrome-plated and gilded -20 microns,
_- square-oval and round.
° .Silver, gilded and
° covered with black nickel.
Numerals and hour signs embossed and framed
_ ..
grained, _ golden and silver
-. rowdy,
t.
The scales are black _ and white. Gilded hands
and black zveg,
"ROTUOT› 2609

 The jist though is that they are similar. There is no description of the 2209 in that catalogue unfortunately. 

[LeeReynolds]

  On 10/8/2020 at 10:04 PM, AndyHull said:

Very nice.

I have a Sekonda which is somewhat  similar but not nearly so well preserved. In my case, the bezel and crystal pop off in one piece. It splits about the line I have indicated.

Before you try this though examine very carefully with good magnification. You may find a small indent/recess to insert the blade at.

If this is indeed the way it is constructed use a very thin blade, like a safety razor to push into the gap and separate the two parts. You may need to push a second one in beside the first to get enough of a gap to insert your case knife and you should then be able to pop the thing off

If there is no recess to inset your case knife, then Insert your first thin blade in the line between the lugs where any accidental damage will be less obvious, but proceed very carefully so you don't do any damage in the first place.

Once the bezel and crystal are off, undo the two screws holding the clamps that hold the mechanism in and it should pop out of the front.

If you don't remove the bezel, but just the crystal, then the dial may be trapped behind the inside curve of the bezel and this may prevent the movement from coming out.

Expand  

That worked beautifully!

I had to look really closely under a 10x loupe to see that there really is an almost imperceptible area just where you indicated.

I was able to carefully insert a case knife and the bezel popped off without any effort at all.

Now to see if I can replace the movement in this watch with the one I've created from scrap movement parts.

 

 

[LeeReynolds]

  On 10/9/2020 at 5:50 PM, JohnC said:

By the way, just a word of caution on these 2209 dials. I have always been suspicious of the ones that have the double-marker at the 12 instead of the triple. This link is suggestive but maybe not conclusive. All of which isn't to say that it is not still a good watch - just depends on your preference I think.

https://www.2209watchmovement.com/brand-specifics/luch

 

Expand  

I emailed the owner of that site with the details on my watch.

He's pretty sure it isn't NOS, but is a frankenwatch created using a 2209 movement with a new case, dial, and hands.

I'm not too peeved about that.  I'm not averse to getting a replica using an old movement.  I just wish the seller had been honest about it.

 

[AndyHull]

Whatever it is, franken or not, its certainly something I would wear.

If that dial is a replacement, it is an excellent one, find me the person that created it. In my experience, most franken dials are pretty poor, that one looks too good to be franken, but I may be wrong.
How is the rebuilt mechanism doing?
What is the issue with the one it came with?

Edited October 10, 2020 by AndyHull

[LeeReynolds]

The movement that came with this watch has an amplitude problem that causes it to gain a lot.  My timegrapher isn't even able to sync to it.

I didn't care try to work on the movement without more knowledge and experience, so I ordered scrap movements of the same type to work on.  I've been able to build a movement from those.

This built movement works better than the one in the watch, but it isn't perfect however, its amplitude waxes and wanes, and the watch gains and loses time along with the amplitude changes.  For example, it might say 278 and +3 seconds, then jump up to 302 and +22 seconds, then down to 265 and -13 seconds.  I'm keeping it wound and on the timegrapher to see if this settles out.  I've also demagnetized the movement.  All the parts have been cleaned and I've oiled the movement with D5 and 9010 in the appropriate locations.

I've not been able to get this watch back together again yet as its dial feet are friction fitted and are loose in the movement.  I've ordered some adhesive pads from Esslinger's.

Here are some pictures of the case and dial that I've attempted to take with the macro function on my old camera.  They've not come out great, but they may be good enough for an expert or two to give me an opinion on their provenance.

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by LeeReynolds

[JohnC]

Re. The variable amplitude issue, check the amount of sideshake in the barrel arbor and make sure the barrel isn’t hitting the bridge or the main plate when wound. I had a similar problem with this movement and it turned out to be barrel arbor bushing wear. 

[JohnC]

Also about the dial feet. Are you sure you are not missing dial screws? On mine they screw in, not friction fit.

[Endeavor]

If you really like to learn more (in-depth) about Russian watches (and the "fakeries") I would recommend to have a look on the WUS-forum: https://www.watchuseek.com/forums/russian-watches.10/

This is a good thread to start with or to read: https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/q-a-expertise-thread-is-this-watch-legit-or-a-franken-part-3.4977267/

Wish you Suc6 and perhaps see you there 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Endeavor

[LeeReynolds]

  On 10/11/2020 at 5:36 PM, JohnC said:

Re. The variable amplitude issue, check the amount of sideshake in the barrel arbor and make sure the barrel isn’t hitting the bridge or the main plate when wound. I had a similar problem with this movement and it turned out to be barrel arbor bushing wear. 

Expand  

I never thought about it being a problem with the barrel.  I'll definitely look into that.

[LeeReynolds]

  On 10/12/2020 at 3:05 AM, JohnC said:

Also about the dial feet. Are you sure you are not missing dial screws? On mine they screw in, not friction fit.

Expand  

I'm 99.9% sure.  Some of the movements I stripped down had dial feet still stuck in the main plates.  These feet were in there snug.  The dial feet locations aren't on the very edge of the movement, but within the interior.  

[LeeReynolds]

I figured out what is wrong with the original movement in this watch.  

It's balance cock is warped.  The portion of the cock that holds the end jewels is curved upwards slightly for some reason, which means that the angle between it and the balance wheel stem is not 90 degrees.  Hence low amplitude.

I discovered this after doing a complete service on the movement, including the end stones, which did nothing to improve the movement's performance.

So I've ordered another 10 scrap movements from Etsy since none of the good balances I have are a match for this one.  I'd prefer to put on one that is the same vintage as the warped one.  I'll also look to see if I can fix this balance cock, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I may also be able to build more working movements from the 10 scraps I'll be getting.