Jump to content
JimmyD

Another eBay Longcase

Recommended Posts

It says it’s a chiming movement but only one weight so what would power the chime train? Unless it’s the little round donut thing but that doesn’t look very heavy. Also in the 1600’s was there much paperwork? Working with deeds the earliest I’ve come across was 1750’s and it was in Latin. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its a 30 hour English Longcase.

I don't think its as old as 1700, but I will leave that to the experts.

It won't be a chiming clock, but will be a striking clock, that is it will count out the hour on the hour, most likely by striking a bell.

Every day you need to pull the weight back up.

I'll look at my books and see if I can get an approximate date based on the hands.

If the clock has been professionally serviced and needs no work the starting bid is already at the top end of its value in my opinion, if its not been serviced correctly and needs work its value is much lower. They have not posted any photos of the movement which you really need to see, but the rope and lead donut do look new, so it probably has been recently serviced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand corrected on the date, it probably is correct, I have references of a Thomas Speakman, London making clocks from 1685 dying in 1714.

If it has been restored why does the movement door look like the hinge on the bottom is damaged?

Edited by Tmuir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The clock is original, hands and spandrils are correct as is the case, however it is a 1 day clock not an 8 day!

The rope is new it would have had a chain when made, the weight most likely would have been brass filled with lead, the small ring is to stop the chain from jumping off the pully and the chain/rope is done in a figure 8 with no end.

Also if this was a rebush why did the horolgist not fix the date wheel, this is a simple task if all the parts are there. With no photo of the movement how can we take his/her word it was done at all?

Conclusion, if this work was only done 2 months ago by an horologist they would have known that this is a 1 day clock, also if he was worth his salt he would have fixed the date wheel, no photo of movement tells you a lot!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think quizzes like this is a fantastic source of wisdom for newbees in clocks like me, I worked with watches for quite some time but never got hooked on clocks but think I'm getting there. I seem to be hovering in this part of the forum more and more.
So of course like in this case I get thinking, how do one know It actually is the real deal.

I think I like a thousand others immediately googled after Thomas Speakman the clockmaker and got tons of clock pictures of his father William Speakman and his brothers William Jr and Edward Speakmans work. They seem to have the same style as their father when it comes to the clockdial which even their apprentices seems to have adopted. They all seems to have worked in the same materials mostly mahogny, but I've seem one "restored" work by Thomas in Walnut but of course with the movement replaced with a newer one.

This clock deviates so much from his other work. It's made with a case in Oak. It has a one day movement. The dial has "French lilies" as decoration, none of the other dials by the Speakmen has them.
The dial seems to have a bad fit, the case seems slightly to small. 
How do one decide if this is the real deal, is there reference books where one can see what the different watchmakers work should look like?
In this case I would just have though it is one inovative clockdealer who built this clock out of time typical parts and engraved a name into the dial.

Edited by HSL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The weight is correct. If it had been an 8 day and made in London then the weights might be brass, but not in a 30 hour movement. You cannot tell if it started out as chain or rope driven by the photos, you need to look at the spikes on the wheel to see if they have been changed in its lifetime. The pendulum bob is new so not original. The lock on the door is broken or missing that is why it has this outside fitting so as the door will close. The small counter weight (its called a donut) is new, It has no signs of wear, also the pulley might not be original, if the movement were chain driven the pulley would be much wider. The obvious has been pointed out. Not seeing the movement is not good. I suspect a marriage, I don’t think that is a London makers case something tells me it is not right.

The asking price is completely bonkers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have had another look at this clock, it looks like the rope is has been suspended on each wheel, if it was set up right it would cross as the one weight would work both the time and the strike, I would like to see the donut swing that pendulum, horologist? bullshit. Anyway I sent off an email and asked for a photo of the movement, let's see if that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand people getting the terms chiming and striking mixed up, but not calling a 30 hour movement an 8 day clock........... That is something fishy.

Also if someone did buy it thinking it was a 8 day movement and paid via paypal and discovered it was a 30 hour movement after getting it home they would win a dispute if lodged by paypal, so I'm guessing the seller hopes people pay cash on pickup and don't know enough to spot its a 30 hour movement before they got home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well then I did get two photos of the movement,  I have not come across this style before, OH will know more about it I suspect. Things I see that are not right in my mind is that it has not been cleaned, therefore not re-bushed? The movement looks to be dated to the dial, however if you look at the calendar wheel pin it does not match the calendar ring, therefore it is a marriage between the dial and the movement. I also can't see how the movement is attached to the board, to me it is just sitting on it, there are two holes in the base plate with nothing in them, therefore the case probably did not start life with the movement. As I said before the rope is not set up correctly and the clock should also be listed as not working. Here are the photos

sl1600.thumb.jpg.8ef9c8000c8095772417553d0430c7a1.jpgs-l1600.thumb.jpg.318fc9cf8c30a0e51017ac27afb99e37.jpg

Edited by JimmyD
Text wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they paid for that to be 'fully restored' just 2 months ago they got ripped off, as you have already stated the plates don't look too clean, it also looks like the striking hammer is tied up with a twist tie, or if it isn't why  is that twist tie there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This type of Longcase movements are known as a Birdcage. Very similar to the Hook and Spike, but without the hook and the spikes. The plates are made of cast brass and can be brittle so very good care is needed. No modern clock cleaning solutions should be used as the plates can have tiny holes in them and it will eat the brass. These dates from the early 1700 and some are known to have small 8 inch brass dials. They are quite crude in appearance and very basic. The calendar on these can play up as it is so basic. The calendar ring sits between three wheels, which are attached to the dial they have a grove in them, the hand setting wheels have an extra wheel with a pin in it and that is what pushes the calendar date wheel around, some time they jam, or they can miss the calendar wheel completely. Cleaned over a year ago I would think buy the rope dust on the bottom plate. The movement is far better than many I have worked on. The top and bottom are made out of brass and so are the pillars, many are made of steel. Count wheel on the outside that is normal. Small decoration to the hammer spring, some are better than others are, this is a nice one. No fixing to the seat board again normal. The calendar ring is there, it is way it has been photographed. One thing that worries me is I cannot see how the dial is fitted to the movement; there is a hole for a pin in one of the pillars but I don’t see an attachment from the dial. If there is a marriage I expect it to be between case and movement and dial.  

Thomas Speakman listed in G H Baillie Watch & Clockmakers of the World Vol 1 1675 C C1685 this means he was master 1714 L C means Long Case

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys , My name is Michael and I have just bought the clock that is the topic of your discussions . So far ' Old Hippy ' is closest to the mark re authenticity .. The movement and chapter ring are original , the weight is also original as is pulley . The rope is new , imported by the repairer from the UK and fitted , as pointed out , incorrectly , but the clock still runs for a while beyond the momentum of the pendulum . The previous owner is responsible for applying a twist tie to the strike arm as they didn't want the noise of the bell ( who doesn't like the sound of a striking clock bell ??? I absolutely love it ! ) and he was under the impression the movement was an 8 day because the strike was not drawing power whilst restrained . There are signs of refurbishment of some bushings and the movement wasn't cleaned but that's to be expected given the  construction. The case is not original to the movement but again , that's not unusual over the years with borers and clumsy furniture removalists on the loose leading to badly damaged cases and subsequent replacement wherever one could be found . I agree that one would expect the date ring to have been repaired during the course of " refurbishment "  ..... I found the owners to be normal , honest people who are not into the nitty gritty of the ins & outs of clocks like true collectors and any misinformation from them was purely lack of knowledge on their part . no intention to mislead I believe... I got the clock for a good price based on the marriage theory and the damage to the case , they were cool with that ... Anyway I hope this makes things a little clearer to all the members who commented on this forum , I'm not a member but I thank you for letting me comment as a guest .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to this friendly forum.

Your user name made me giggle:D Lovejoy. Many years ago a TV series with that very same name about antiques was around I think in the 70’s and very good it was.

 

Many thanks for taking the time in adding your comments. We try to do our best with the info we have from photos and description. I hope you enjoy your clock and that it gives you pleasure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...