Info on carriage clock please

[philipk5 14]

As part of a recent swap/exchange deal I have acquired this carriage clock. It runs but is very fast (10 minutes in 24 hours). It seems to me to be of a fair quality and before I start tinkering with it I would like a bit more information such as age, history, and most importantly should it only be "tinkered with" by someone with experience of this type of clock. Any comments/advice appreciated. Many thanks, Phil.

[watchweasol 1,335]

Hi   This is a fine quality carriage clock lever platform escapement and can be cleaned up very nicely,   I would like one of those  take good care of it . If it is running fast it may be due to the balance spring coils sticking or touching.  best to inspect it first before diving in..  

[oldhippy 2,472]

This is an English carriage clock timepiece. It should run for 8 days and is quite modern. I would say this is from the 50’s. Elliott clocks are very good quality. The platform on this clock has quite a unique regulator as it is split, not only can you regulate the movement by its tail, but it can be regulated by its self at the other end where the regulator pins are. See photo with red arrow. It does look as if the hairspring has bunched up a bit, could be due to dirt or it might be magnetised. It might even be sorted out by moving the regulator from the arrow end. With this type of regulator, the correct position should be both parts as near centre as possible. These movements are not to be polished unlike most carriage clocks as the movement and its parts are lacquered.

Only a person who know what he or she is doing should undertake any repairs.

[philipk5 14]

Many thanks for the info. In the bottom left hand side at the rear it does say "Made in France" this seems at odds with the London on the dial. Would Elliott & Son have used French movements in the 50s? Or did the French use Elliott & Son dials? I thought it might be earlier than the 50s with the bevelled glass all round, and it just seems better made than I would expect from the 50s. Although I suppose all eras have good and not so good. It is really difficult to see the hairspring at the moment as it is doing what it should do. Will let it run down and re-assess with it stationary. Many thanks again for the info.

In view of your last line oldhippy I assume you won't want to tell me how to access the regulator? 

[oldhippy 2,472]

Elliott made there own clock movements. Myself I have two Elliott clocks, I have never know them to be made in Franch. Sure I can help you with your clock. Just ask when you want to start. 

[wls1971 509]

I hate to disagree with the many learned people on here but this clock is of Chinese or Indian origin look at the edge of the plates they are dog rough, as is the finish of the escapement and screws, I have never seen a Elliot platform escapement fitted with a brass regulating arm or a brass click it lacks quality to the finish of the case most evident in the way the back door is pinned together, there appears to be very poor finish on the wheels and arbors, the dial is poor, its just not adding up to a quality clock that I would expect from Elliott even in the latter stages of the company they kept reasonably good quality.

[oldhippy 2,472]

28 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

I hate to disagree with the many learned people on here but this clock is of Chinese or Indian origin look at the edge of the plates they are dog rough, as is the finish of the escapement and screws, I have never seen a Elliot platform escapement fitted with a brass regulating arm or a brass click it lacks quality to the finish of the case most evident in the way the back door is pinned together, there appears to be very poor finish on the wheels and arbors, the dial is poor, its just not adding up to a quality clock that I would expect from Elliott even in the latter stages of the company they kept reasonably good quality.

You are completely wrong. The platform happens to be good it is well jewelled. The movement is an Elliott. The thickness of the plates is right for an Elliott. The click, the plate that holds the ratchet wheel and the screws are all typical Elliott. Don’t forget this is not an antique French carriage clock.   

[wls1971 509]

No not convinced by this one at all, I have many Elliott clocks these are showing up in auction houses and antique centres in vast numbers, they are either oval in shape with or with out painted dials or in the form of a bamboo style cases

http://en.51bidlive.com/PreView/PreViewDetails/1330668

https://www.kinghamandorme.com/lot/5119

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elliott-amp-Sons-Oval-Shaped-miniature-Carriage-Clock-/372625594045?hash=item56c23756bd%3Ag%3AFR0AAOSwYqVcbCXI&nma=true&si=o76aCw8w5vCAdt%2FUQtT4J6cm7Tk%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

 

[oldhippy 2,472]

It is very clear to me those clocks are rubbish. Not even close to the same platform. As for the painting on the plates a chimp could do better. 

[wls1971 509]

2 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Not even close to the same platform

Really what about the platform in the top one 

 

40 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

http://en.51bidlive.com/PreView/PreViewDetails/1330668

Does it not look the same ?

I have seen too many of these clocks in a short space of time to be convinced that the clock the O.P as shown is just another Chinese fake.

[oldhippy 2,472]

Its not even jewelled.

[philipk5 14]

Blimey  chaps, I wasn't expecting such a debate!  All opinions and comments are very welcome. Seems like some much better photos of my clock are in order. Are there any particular areas to photograph that would help clarify the status?

There is a phrase that springs to mind - "If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question."

Genuine or not, either way I really like this clock.

I am now somewhat curious for as close to a definitive answer(s) as is achievable from photographs.

Thanks again for the opinions.

Phil.

 

[watchweasol 1,335]

Hi Phil   I am with Old Hippy on this but the fact is you like the clock and are happy with it, thats a result thats all that matters  good luck with the cleanup be careful of the pivots usually quite hard and easily broken ..............cheers

[JimmyD 26]

I think we need to see the movement at least with the back door open. I don't know if Elliott bought French movements as some clock makers did from other makers, however looking at the finish it is all to heavy for a French clock, the screws look way to heavy the click spring is way to big, and the click lever is also brass and way to big, brass on brass?. One thing that might help is the screw that holds the click in place, if you take that off and see if it is blued all over and not painted.

[wls1971 509]

3 hours ago, JimmyD said:

I don't know if Elliott bought French movements

Yes Elliot did buy in French movements but only in the very early days these where mostly the standard pendule de paris type movements which they cased up in English made wooden cases. Elliott did not start producing platform escapement clocks until the 1920's  and used a Swiss 11 jewel  or french 11 jewel  in 1929 their platform clocks where fitted with 11 jewel English made  Rotherham and sons platforms used upon til 1948 when they started using 11 jewel L'epee platforms including the rather interesting L'epee silent tick platform which had a extra hairspring around the escape wheel arbor. When ever Elliott had problems with supply during and after the war they would revert to using Smiths platforms as a stop gap. The clocks produced in later years of the company used 7 jewel L'epee, non of the platforms used looks  like the one pictured.

Another problem with the clock shown is the use of "Elliott and sons" on the dial the clocks would have simply had Elliott on the dial and the movements would have been stamped with a J.J.E trademark in the early years and F.W Elliott in later years.

These clocks started turning up in auction around 2010 and have been increasing in numbers from that date, I see plenty in antique centres including one yesterday in a antique centre in Harrogate.

The story of Elliott is a rather complicated one as the company merged and amalgamated with several other English makers most notably "Gillett and Johnstons" and Grimshaw.

Edited March 25, 2019 by wls1971

[oldhippy 2,472]

That is very good information you have found. Another day and I am having to think again. One thing I did think of and that is the click. Elliotts tended to have their clicks in two pieces and blued and the click spring would be blued and a different shape to this one.

I would like to see the dial close up around the hands if that is possible and around the name. 

[oldhippy 2,472]

This is getting quite interesting. I have a bit more time today. Searching google I found this.

The person has this to say.

 I AM NOT a clock person, I received this as a gift last Christmas from a very, very old man from Germany, he since has passed away and I have no need for it. I pretty much know what it is worth, as I took it to 3 clock shops and had it appraised, they verified it was not a fake from China. Best offer gets it. This clock is in flawless condition! Keeps time perfectly, It has inlays of multiple color stones what looks like to be flowers and other items, you be the judge.

So what do you think of the third photo. I know which one I would have. 

[wls1971 509]

The top clock is a chinese copy sold by someone making up a cock and bull story to add an aire of provenance. 

The bottom clock is a modern clock from the last throw of the dice for Elliott it is essentially a Thwaites and Reed carriage clock rebadged by Elliott when they purchased the company in 1977.

[oldhippy 2,472]

 

Yes that’s what I think. You have settled my mind. I was completely wrong about the clock in question. You have convinced me, it is a fake of some discerption Chinese you say. Maybe I’m getting too old for this game. My sight is not getting better.  

To you.

[wls1971 509]

I have watched over 30 years of collecting watches the increase of fakes turning my hobby into a absolute minefield, the Chinese are getting scarily good at copying expensive watches, they have been doing the same with clocks in more recent years, the latest fake French clocks are on another level and quality is increasing they are at the moment producing figural clocks with porcelain panels that are quite extraordinary the days of obvious fakes are coming to a end buyer beware.

I deplore fakes presented as the genuine article because before long people may start believing the lie and these clocks start to be accepted as genuine for all the problems Elliott suffered in later years quality always remained at a good standard and they should be remembered for mass produced clocks that where a good British product.

[philipk5 14]

I like to try and learn something new every day. Thanks to all the info provided on here I feel I am a couple of weeks in credit!!

I am sort of pleased with the outcome, it will be less stressful carrying out any work.

Many many thanks to all,...... now what battery goes in my Rolex Daytona?

[philipk5 14]

Just to finish things off here are some more photos as requested

[wls1971 509]

Now I look at it in more detail the dial is obvious it says "Elliott and Son" there where two sons and some quality bracket clocks from the early 1900's have Elliott and Sons on the dial at the same time advertising literature was headed "J.J.Elliott and Sons"

[oldhippy 2,472]

Well it serves me right. If only I’d asked for close ups I would have been able to tell you that it is not an Elliott but a repro or fake. The writing on the dial is extremely poor and looks like I could have done it after a pub-crawl. The hole in the dial is out of line with the hour wheel, it is not evenly spaced around the pipe.   

Still we had some very good info from our good friend wls1971

[nad 30]

Great information from all, I've learned a lot by following this thread.

Thank you WLS1971 & OH for sharing your information.

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